Another question about intergrades

[SnakeWrangler]

yes, so you truly believe that it is impossible for a pure coastal to ever come across a pure diamond in the wild ever again??

 

[snakehunter]

I think it might be a good idea to create a glossary of herp terms where people can look up such terms as 'intergrade' and 'hybrid' and be able to understand the difference, it would save a lot of time

 

[SnakeWrangler]

to make things simpler, if by some miracle a pure coastal and a pure diamond came across each other in the wild (integrades would never have happended if this never happended before so it must be possible) what would the offspring be?

 

[hugsta]

yes, so you truly believe that it is impossible for a pure coastal to ever come across a pure diamond in the wild ever again??

Yes.

 

[BROWNS]

Read the thread dude and read the More Diamond gg thread,if you still can't work it out then there's no hope... :roll:

My head is sore from banging the bloody wall....doh!!!

 

[hugsta]

SW, what you don't realise is that this happened thousands of years ago, so they have been breeding like this for ages. That is why diamonds and coastals won't meet. They are seperated by integrades.

 

[SnakeWrangler]

well I am left in awe that integrades ever happended at all, I mean heaven forbid that a pure coastal should cross into "integrade land" and the same for a diamond, and just how could you or anyone guarantee that this could never happen??

 

[SnakeWrangler]

the possibility is slim but come one if we came from some muck in a pond somewhere millions of years ago surely you could believe that one might slip through the cracks!! surely!!

 

[skunk]

whats an intergrade ?

HAHAH !! only kidding. i read the thread. plz dont bother answering me. :twisted:

 

[BROWNS]

SW,your sig sums it up quite well i think.....

I guess you would call it evolution which if my memory serves me correctly you don't believe in?

 

[SnakeWrangler]

I am not saying it is evolution, nor am I saying I believe in evolution, I am saying if you can believe in evolution, then surely you could believe it would be possible for the two pure animals to meet in the wild. There is far more chance of the latter than the former.

actually the question is plausible: what is an integrade?

is it what happens when a pure wild diamond breeds naturally in the wild with a pure wild coastal? I know if an integrade breeds with an integrade, naturally you get an integrade, of course the natural integrades found are probably many generation integrade but at the heart of it they are really just a diamond cross a coastal.

I think the reason so many people get confused about this subject is because people are so passionate about keeping snake pure they make the issue confusing.

Look at it from the new comers point of view:

on the one hand you say: a pure wild coastal breeding with a pure wild diamond = created integrades
on the other hand you say: a captive bred pure coastal breeding with a captive bred pure diamond = creates hybrids

this does not make sense, genetically both would produce the same thing!! The difference only comes with our perception of the snakes, we see it that if it happens naturally then it is an integrade because there is no outside force, but in captivity they are manually brought together so we call it hybrid.

It is as simple as that, if you took a captive pure diamond and a captive pure coastal and bred them, and continued to breed the offspring for thousands of years you would get: wait for it: here it comes: THE SAME THING THAT HAS OCCURED NATURALLY, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WOULD BE THAT YOUR INSTANCE DID NOT OCCUR NATURALLY!!

 

[hugsta]

My head is hurting too Browns, I know how you feel... :shock: :wink:

 

[Guest]

You've convinced me SW.

That last big post sums it up to a tea i reckon.

 

[hugsta]

on the one hand you say: a pure wild coastal breeding with a pure wild diamond = created integrades
on the other hand you say: a captive bred pure coastal breeding with a captive bred pure diamond = creates hybrids

The one BIG difference is that in the wild they have done it for hundreds of generations and have become their own "line" of Morelia. That is why an integrade looks different to any daimond, any carpet and any hybrid (coastal x diamond). It is not something done over night as in captive bred diamond x carpets, it is something over hundreds of generations.

 

[SnakeWrangler]

From a new comers point of view that is irrelevant, I fully understand the reasoning behind the need to seperate the two, but the only difference between hybrids and integrades (as we understand them) is that integrades have a more concentrated genetic makup, 99.99999.....% of the time integrades would produce offspring that doesn't look like a coastal or a diamond, but an integrade, a hybrid has a "loose" genetic makeup, its offspring could and most likely would produce offspring that were more like one or the other, until after many, many generations the genes would become concentrated. Just as they have in the wild.

I think if this fact was explained to people then they would realise the difference much easier and see why there is a need to preserve the "natural integrades" and not promote or breed "hybrids".

 

[SnakeWrangler]

Or if they do breed or promote hybrids to never pass them off as natural integrades.

 

[BROWNS]

You're just complicating the whole point of this thread....intergrades have been around for thousands of years and as Hugsta said are their own family of Morelia......maybe after someone has bred hundreds of pure coastals to hundreds of pure diamonds you might get what you are describing but i highly doubt that...there's so much variation in pure diamonds alone as well as coastals...

Keep it simple...intergrades are a naturally occuring line of morelia just as jungles or bredli are..they are not hybrids which "again" is a purposely selected crossing of species...simple as that and intergrades will always be intergrades even in another 1000 years if the world lasts that long!!!

 

[BROWNS]

maybe after someone has bred hundreds of pure coastals to hundreds of pure diamonds you might get what you are describing but i highly doubt that...

I should add that that would have to be after thousands of years of cross breeding and even then i doubt the dna would be the same...

 

[SnakeWrangler]

Well get used to banging your head against the wall, because without an explanation that is closer to reality than, "they are different just accept it" you will get many more people asking the question: what is an integrade?

Just as a note, if you read my post above (I know its a long one) I agree that they are natural where hybrids are not, this is exactly the point I am trying to make and the point that most confused people see, hence there confusion.

Anyway, now I am getting a headache.

So what is an integrade anyway? :lol:

 

[moosenoose]

I think SnakeWrangler has posted some very interesting points! This in particular!

this does not make sense, genetically both would produce the same thing!! The difference only comes with our perception of the snakes, we see it that if it happens naturally then it is an integrade because there is no outside force, but in captivity they are manually brought together so we call it hybrid.

It is as simple as that, if you took a captive pure diamond and a captive pure coastal and bred them, and continued to breed the offspring for thousands of years you would get: wait for it: here it comes: THE SAME THING THAT HAS OCCURED NATURALLY, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WOULD BE THAT YOUR INSTANCE DID NOT OCCUR NATURALLY!!

I'm certainly going to do more reading on this because it jst sounds like a play on words to me! Intergrades & hybrids!

So what happens when an intergrade breeds with a pure blood coastal or diamond? Does it become another intergrade because its occurred naturally in the wild?? You can't for one minute tell me the paths of these two animals could never cross! What happens when a breeder crosses an intergrade and a pureblood in captivity? Does that automatically make it a hybrid?? Sounds like there is a fine line on what is exactly what! I can understand the term and why it needs to be used - but exactly where and how you use it, is certainly highly debatable!