Breeding jungles : Locality vs. trait

[ihaveherps]

Hello everyone,

i am at the moment looking to put a fair bit of money into setting up two breeding programs, jungles and childreni, with the focus being on patterns and colours (obviously). But the question i am putting to the forum is would it be frowned upon to breed animals of different locality (eg. tully x atherton) in pursuit of beauty? But before this topic flys off the handle i am not talking intergrades! No Jungle x Darwin, or Mac x Childreni. Just locality.

All responses appreciated.
ihaveherps

 

[MrBredli]

I don't think it's that big of a deal, not many animals have a 100% guarantee of locality anyway.. Besides, if the offsping are absolute stunners who's going to complain?

 

[pugsly]

Roy Pails does it, so do many breeders so dont see the prob mate goodluck with it.

 

[Glimmerman]

IMO it's fine. In relation to locality it's like MRBedli said Prove It. I usually buy on the looks / quality of the animal anyway.

 

[Retic]

Just go for it. I have a Tully/Atherton and he is a great looking animal and that's what it's all about.

 

[zen]

I think when breeding reptiles it's always best to use specimens from the same locality.
If you can't get the same locality, at least the same region.
Then they're true to type and unique characteristics will be retained.

This doesn't mean that you don't ever select for colour or pattern.
You can still pick the brightest & best patterns from a litter or clutch.
Ideally, they shouldn't be related at all, so you need two unrelated pairs.
Then the progeny can be paired up without inbreeding and sold as locality pure, unrelated pairs. This is best for the environment and if money is a motivating factor, will attract a premium price in the future amongst discerning collectors.

If you're serious about breeding the very best animals they should be both locality pure & unrelated.
Building up such a collection may take alot longer (years even, to track down the right animals) but have patience.

Locality pure animals, even if average looking have more value to the purist, wishing to retain the integrity of the species, than the unnatural products that inbreeding creates.

It's also not in the best interests of the health of specimens, as eventually breeding for particular traits, leads many to inbreeding.
This produces a compromised immune system and less robust health.

Finally, animals are instinctively less attracted to their kin, which makes breeding them more difficult with more deformities, slugs & infertility.

Substance over appearance is the best policy, in my opinion.
Otherwise we'll end up like America with a genetic soup of freaks that can only be called Morelia americana.


zen

 

[Retic]

Well you make some interesting points BUT it is very wrong to say things like 'it's always best to use specimens from the same locality' and 'they shouldn't be related at all, so you need two unrelated pair'. Whether these things are important is down to the individual.
While I accept and promote the need to for locality pure animals it shouldn't be to the exclusion of other morphs and crosses.
It might come as a surprise to many of the bigger breeders in this country that inbreeding is such a bad thing, there are some wonderful animals on the market that are a result of linebreeding.
There is a breeder by the name of Dave Barker who says 'inbreeding' for 6 or more generations hasn't shown any appreciable problems.

I'm not really sure how it is best for the environment ? Are you planning on releasing any animals ? Is there any likelyhood that any captive bred animals will be released into the wild ?

I would like to see the study that has shown that related snakes are less attracted to eachother and how they can possibly know they are related.

Like I say you make some interesting points and you are obviously passionate about what you believe which is good but don't make the mistake of believing it is the only way which can be right.

 

[zen]

Hi Boa,

You said:-
Well you make some interesting points BUT it is very wrong to say things like 'it's always best to use specimens from the same locality' and 'they shouldn't be related at all, so you need two unrelated pair'.

I'm glad you found my comments interesting.

Please don't quote me out of context though, it's misleading.
I prefaced my point with "I think...", making it my opinion, not an absolute or universal truth.

Yes, I am passionate about these things as I believe it's a very important aspect of breeding, that too many people haven't considered enough the consequences of crossing this with that.
Sure it may be fine if you only intend the progeny to be sold as a pet and/or it's sold as a mongrel cross and not misrepresented.
But if you want to keep a species pure and respect the uniqueness of regional characteristics, then breeding locality pure animals is important.

 

[junglemad]

I take my hat off to anyone who releases a clutch of $800 Jungle Pythons into the wild to be eaten by Kookaburras, foxes and cats

 

[Retic]

Zen, thanks but I still don't understand why it is best for the enironment ?

 

[zen]

more points

A few more points...

You seem to be implying that there's little harm in inbreeding.
I disagree.

Some examples of problems with inbreeding are:-

1) - the congenital health problems that pure dog breeds suffer from.

2) - American hillbillies or small-town Tasmanians (no offence intended). If you've ever travelled in remote Tazzy or seen "Deliverance", you'll know what I mean. Great movie & great banjo playing by the way!

3) - Look at some royal families, especially the Spanish 17th & 18th century, depicted by Velasquez etc.
Very unattractive results from "line-breeding" there.
Not just appearances, but low intelligence is often the result, indeed dare I say, inevitable!.

Why should it be any different with reptiles?.
In fact, they're already having health problems in the U.S as a result of inbreeding their reptiles.
I noticed that the statement about Dave Barker's inbreeding was qualified.

'inbreeding' for 6 or more generations hasn't shown any appreciable problems.

"appreciable" - means that there are already some noticeable, albeit small, problems occurring after just 6 generations!.

In answer to your Q re: release of stock into the wild.
No I don't plan to. It's illegal by the way!
However, on that point, if you only kept locality true specimens, sourced locally and they escaped, no problems with interference to the gene pool or introducing diseases.

When I write about 'better for the environment', I'm talking about minimal damage. When escapees occur, as occasionally happens (with reptiles being escape artists) your not going to do as much damage, as you would if your "exotic" escaped.


Cheers, zen

 

[buck]

When I write about 'better for the environment', I'm talking about minimal damage. When escapees occur, as occasionally happens (with reptiles being escape artists) your not going to do as much damage, as you would if your "exotic" escaped.

Can you tell me what difference it will make if for example a pure Tully Jungle or a Tully x Atherton will make? Do you honestly believe that one will be more detrimental to the environment than the other? Please explain how.

 

[ihaveherps]

I originally posted this because I share similar views with Zen, regrettably one day the only place you may be able to find the genetics for some pythons will be in the private collections, unfortunately we will become modern day Noah's. Yet trying to attain unrelated pairs is almost impossible, as if you find same locality, most of the time they are related a few gens back and line bred to keep purity.

I suppose i really want to own one of those mind-blowing jungles you see in pics, but are never sold.

However, I dont dissagree with all of the other members, as they have proved that there is a market for quality pet snakes.

I just hope that there are herpers that will breed some for purity and others for pets, or the hobby will become a freak show within our lifetimes.

So i think i have come to my decision. Working towards the ultimate jungle via mixing locality, while keeping my ear to the ground and digging in for the long haul with locality.

Sorry for being all over the place.
Thankyou all for your input!

ihaveherps

 

[ihaveherps]

I keep jungles in Bankstown, Sydney! If they escape they wont do any damage to the local jungle population at all!

You are losing the plot!

 

[zen]

Probably little impact environmentally then.
I didn't read the thread title properly.
I thought that this was a locality v's trait debate.
If we're just talking breeding Jungles in Bankstown, then it probably doesn't matter much environmentally.

However, do we really want to go mixing them all up anyway?

I personally would love to see the integrity of regional Jungles retained.

Who knows, in the future they may find that the Athertons are a seperate & endangered sub-species :shock: .
Not so far fetched a situation, as I've heard that QLD has removed most of it's rainforest & what's left is fragmented.

:idea: So hypothetically speaking, what if you needed to restock the extinct true Atherton Jungle - Morelia cheynei athertonii

What if everyone had crossed them with Tully's or Daintree's or whatever?

What if you as a breeder had chosen to only breed with other known, provenance authenticated true Athertons?
You'd be a local & national herp hero.
Just think about it for a moment.
That's all I'm saying.

 

[Retic]

more points

The whole point is that apparently what applies to mammals doesn't seem to apply to reptiles. I guess I really should have said there are no apparent problems after multiple generations, there are no problems I have heard of that can be attributed to linebreeding, of course that isn't to say that the possibility doesn't exist but I don't personally know of any problems.
I am not saying you can line breed ad infinitum.

Am I right in assuming you only condone keeping animals native to your immediate area ? I can almost guarantee that every keeper in the country with more than half a dozen animals has Australian exotics.

Like I said you have interesting ideas and I am in no way critical of them.

 

[zen]

Thanks Boa,

We agree to disagree I suppose.

I'm a purist & yes I only keep species found in my area.
I even prefer to keep locality true specimens.
If I can't be confident about their geographic bloodline, then I don't buy.

I never advertise for wanted animals from a particular area.
I ask the breeder where they're from as re: geographic locality of bloodline...
...& wait for an answer.
They have little reason to lie I reckon, as they don't know what I want to hear! :wink:

If in doubt, don't.
If it's not good enough, then go without.

I've got the patience of a saint :lol:


zen

P.S - You said:-

I can almost guarantee that every keeper in the country with more than half a dozen animals has Australian exotics.

I've got more than half a dozen specimens and none are exotic to my area.
So there goes your guarantee! :wink:
I'm glad you qualified it

P.S.S - Boa please tell me you don't keep Boa's or other exotics :roll: .

 

[Retic]

No, unfortunately for legal reasons only I don't have any Boas or other exotics but have kept plenty over the years. The true Red Tail Boa is my all time favourite snake.

 

[zen]

So do you mind me asking where your from originally, as I gather you've lived overseas before.
By the way, human exotics are O.K. :wink: :lol:

Cheers, John

 

[ihaveherps]

Im hearing you Zen. I have a pair of sibling Tully's coming, they have the genetic lateral stripe I want, just that tully's aren't known for their yellows. So for now I will work on mixing locallity to get the dream snake while i keep my ear out for yellow tully's, the whole program WOULD come together if i can find some more quality Tully's, but good jungles are hard to find, and harder to get in early enough to get a good choice.

If I didn't care about local purity, why would i even post the question?

I have spent thousands collecting high quality herps, this season another 4G. I dont rush my purchases, so the ages of my pairs are all over the place (no single pair has both ready). My Mrs will neuter me if i dont turn the tide on the cash flow. Single locallity is my goal, I was just testing the waters to see if the mixed had a place in the market while i bide my time.

I really appreciate your correspondence.
Have to catch up some time.

ihaveherps