Breeding jungles : Locality vs. trait

[flavirufus]

Hi Ad,
I'm just getting my head around it myself and don't have a good grip on highland/lowland differences yet. I started calling the lowland ones Cape Trib carpets a several years back when I didn't quite understand their distribution and it seemed to catch on amongst people I associated with (however, I'm SURE others would have been calling them this quite independantly of me). I've PM'd you with some more details. As with others, I'm reluctant to divulge specific info on their distribution, beyond the fact that they occur in pockets through the Daintree.

Hi Dave,
No arguments about Julatten being the well-known spot. Other populations of "black & whites" seem much less know, even by those who live up there. There's definitely some Darwin influence in the carpets found further north.

Matt

 

[GetCoiled]

Yes, It seems that other B&W populations are much less known than the Trib's and Julatten sheattered also in clutches of "normal" looking ones. Some specimens show more than white an ivory looking, and if memory serves me well I've seen some in a Lake Tinaroo jungle clutch.
Cheers
Stefano

 

[ad]

Hi GetCoiled,
If you are referring to Tinaroo Dam - I would have thought it unlikely they would be found that far south.
Also, I havent heard of them mixed in with normal clutches - are you saying they are like a 'throwback' -B&g's having one in their clutch? or have had a b&w partner?
Cheers
Ad

 

[GetCoiled]

Hi ad, I'm afraid to be not able to understand the term "'throwback'"...I mean that some specimens in some clutch seem to show randomly an ivory pattern. About Cape Trib and Julatten populations do they show ALL the B&W pattern?
Cheers

Stefano

 

[BROWNS]

Yep agreed the Julatten types being very much highland animals are a different bag than what you get along Cape Trib Daintree areas where they're colours tend to vary a lot more to tones of yellows,whites,ivory and silver.

Just like most jungles the lowland or coastal fringe Cape Trib Daintree types in comparison to say Bottom end Palmerston Innisfail area to the top of the range such as places like Milla Milla and Babinda etc where they tend to have different traits and sizes.

The Julattens are what i call "TRUE" black and whites and are in thick King Kong rainforest country lol and again will vary with colours in shades of bright white to silvers etc and as with most jungles have their glory days and look their best when younger but many still look awesome as adults.

Pic of my adult Julatten type,as idon't have full history on the animal and came to me aka Cape Trib jungle but is definitely much more like the Julatten types in appearance and yes the marbled eyes is a trait for sure,moreso very silver as juveniles and a bit darker but still marbled as adults.

Also getting back at purity and inbreeding i really don't think a Tully jungle etc would care less if he meets up with his sister in mating season 3 or 4 years down the track,much like say the water pythons at Fogg Dam or GTP'S as well as other isolated pockets of reptiles in general.

You can also get what people would call an ugly jungle bred to another and still produce high quality animals both coloured and patterned.Some of the best Jungle pics in books are wild type animals even compared to multi generation selectively bred animals.

 

[GetCoiled]

What about so called Tully jungle? I guess this one is a very famous one into the pet-trade, and I found it cited also in some book. Do you recognize diverse populations under this "label"? I say that because I agree with the infos about the Palmerstons that show great variability between the inisfail/Millaa Millaa range. It seems that the first one are more classic yellow-black patterned than the blackish last ones with a melanistic looking.
Cheers

Stefano

 

[ad]

Hi GetCoiled,
Did you see the pic I posted??? Look back a page or 2 and at Browns' adult.

About Cape Trib and Julatten populations do they show ALL the B&W pattern?

I have seen a jungle from near Tinaroo that has white patches running laterally near the ventrals and it looked nice but nothing like these black&whites!!

are in thick King Kong rainforest country lol and again will vary with colours in shades of bright white to silvers etc and as with most jungles have their glory days and look their best when younger but many still look awesome as adults.

I agree Browns - lol at the King Kong bit.

 

[Jason]

there are so many localities its confusing, i wouls still love to see some pictures of various localities,especialy tully.

 

[BROWNS]

Nothing especially famous abut Tully jungles although i have heard stories of many freaky loking jungles from that general area as Tully is just a tiny town but happens to have the highest rainfall per year in Australia.You can get nice black banded ones to awesome striped ones just s you can find in many other jungle localities.The ranges have to extend to many places not ever seen before ,who knows what's out there but you could easily find a Palmesrton jungle that looks like a Tully jungle,there's so many more areas if you got really specific that it's all a bit confusing.You will find huge diversity under the "Tully" label as well as any other area although as mentioned places like Mission Beach are well known for being very banded animals with good solid black however i'm sure you'd get striped ones and other variations there alsne thing you will find is that most end up with a lot of melanin as they age...You'll get jungles just as yellow from Tully or Innisfail/Palmerston...I've been told by relocators and others they've seen pure black and golds right in Cairns and Port Douglas.

Most of the tablelands has been cleared from tin mining etc and would've originally been completley covered in bush but there are still scattered pockets or open forest areas where maybe overtime animals have adopted to food size and less habitat attributing to Athertons being larger moe terrestrial cheynei,same taxon but completely different to a true jungle but i wonder what the Athertons looked like before much of the area was cleared.Ravenshoe,Herbeton and areas like that still have some nice jungles and it's a very cleared area with piles of rubble everywhere but i have heard of big and colourful animals from this area.

 

[GetCoiled]

Yes ad, I was not well "understandable"...I meant if ALL the specimens belonging to that kind of populations are B&W, and not if the single B&W specimen is really colored in that way. Sorry for that misunderstanding due my poor English. Would you kindly post Browns a "tipical" Tully one?
Cheers
Stefano

PS: how those nice Palmerston eggs are going?

 

[BROWNS]

Hey Stefano,the Julattens are well known for mainly black and whites as pictured but i think there's a lot to be learnt as yet.If you got an odd one which i have seen it could possibly be something special who knows???

Ok,here's a pic of a small Tully jungle but i would not say this is your typical Tully jungle and not sure i'd call any of them a typical one because of the variation.Although when people such as pilbara look as closely as scle colour etc traits would be more recognisable for sure.

Eggs are looking tops Stefano,fingers crossed they throw some stunning stuff!!

 

[flavirufus]

I'm going to have to disagree with you Browns :lol: I haven't seen too many adults from either Julatten or Cape Trib, but the Julatten ones have generally browned off, while Capes have stayed a beautiful silver. However, I'd love to see a pic of an adult black & white Julatten and have you prove me wrong, as that means two great locations for genuine black & whites (like I said, still getting my head around it). Having said that, I'm sure both populations have a fair bit of variation. As we all know, not all jungles are created equal and only the best can be called black & white.

I also think your girl looks much more Cape Trib than Julatten. I thought we agreed on that? :lol:

Matt

 

[BROWNS]

Yeah Matt,i've seen a couple that had looked like they smudged out looking dirtier than the Cape Trib bw adults i've only seen pics of.From a recent pic which i've been privvy to one adult looked that nice silvery look and very clean and similar to a nice Cape Trib type but from the few numbers it's hard to make a definite decision but the Cape or coastal type do seem to be more banded and Julattens a more joined white pattern with generally more white than black,but you can also see that in an adult Cape Trib on your page.

The Girl i have just looks to me more like the Julatten types the more i look at her,right down to the head pattern and a friend thinks much the same, however it could be either but definitely a true black and white in both our books and much more banded definitely than the highland whites and came to me as a Cape Trib.I hope i can show you a pic of an outstanding adult highland specimen sooner or later :wink:

 

[flavirufus]

Whatever she is, she's a really nice snake! I agree that the lowland animals seem somewhat more banded.

 

[shellshock]

that black & silver oh wow then there is some of the other photos from forum. anything that wasnt black &gold or green & black i didnt think was a jungle e.g.''chenai'' i think there is to much bullcrap regerding jungles but some of the photos i saw even though they r not what ithought was jungles they r 2 Nbelieable 2 b n e thing else

 

[BROWNS]

Hi shellshock,just wondering which you are calling a black and green jungles as i've not seen one of those before i don't think?

Those jungles are pure cheynei nothing else involved and as you can see from my adult who's nearly 7 and still tiny about 4 1/2 foot max...

 

[indicus]

Hello ihaveherps....
I think its a good idea to breed animals from the same locality???, if possible (each to their own).
It's often hard to establish if the animals you intend to breed are from the same local however.
Either way; it has little bearing on wild stocks if you breed eg: a male from here, to a girl from there togeather; unless they were intended to be realeased...Inregards to traits; why not breed to achieve desired traits?....thats breeding!!!. For example; a cattleman breeds desired traits in his cattle to produce an animal that has good quality meat, drought resistant etc etc. He doesnt breed two mongrel animals togeather; just for purity sake.....keep in mind, where talking 'captive'. In the wild if eg: two striped snakes from the same local were to mate; thats random...In capitivity you can manipulate the mating and increase chances; by putting the two trait animals togeather, for the same result....At the end of the day it's your choise.....

 

[Jason]

i think over the years regardles there would have been so much cross breeding between jungle localities that very few are pure, luckily the tullys i am getting will be 4th generation and i can trace them back and can see they SHOULD be pure tully (so long as the originals where both taken from the same area) as for the parents of mine they are both about 5ft. as for the real true black and golds that go for 700-800 each hatchy i reckon most are just a mix to achieve great colours unless somebody can give me a locality i have never been told one for these animals. that tully photo is great i love the stripe down the back, do you have any adult normal colours because that would would still colour up a little more, so i would love to see some pics of true adult colours.
thanks

 

[Jason]

just one question, has anybody seen the jungle for sale on herp trader for 500 in vic, add number 650-202 in new listings, does any body know what likely locality that animal looks like?
thanks

 

[zen]

Hey Browns,

Thanks for the locality info & photos to illustrate your points.

You're enlightening as always 8)

That Julatten type aka Cape Trib Jungle of yours is an absolutely stunning looking snake.

Also, that small Tully Jungle is a wonderful little specimen.
Those colours have a subtle richness that I find sublimely beautiful.
Is that a locality true animal :?:


Cheers john