Breeding jungles : Locality vs. trait
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Z
zen
Guest
U.K. Cool man 8)
The old empire hey. Herps are growing fast in popularity there I hear.
I've spent a little time there myself and my ancestors originate from there as well as France & Germany. I think one of them stole a loaf of bread or something trivial in exchange for a free ticket to the land of the lizards. :wink:
So I'm a real mongrel myself :lol:
The old empire hey. Herps are growing fast in popularity there I hear.
I've spent a little time there myself and my ancestors originate from there as well as France & Germany. I think one of them stole a loaf of bread or something trivial in exchange for a free ticket to the land of the lizards. :wink:
So I'm a real mongrel myself :lol:
Z
zen
Guest
How you delete a post?(I accidentally sent the previous post twice).
JunglePython
Well-Known Member
heres a picture of one of my Tullys. I would say it is yellow.
Dicco
Very Well-Known Member
Stunning mate, you have any others like that?
JunglePython
Well-Known Member
I have Tully eggs in incubator as we speak.
Different parents to the one in picture though.
Different parents to the one in picture though.
Z
zen
Guest
WOW. What a beaut specimen Jungle man 8).
Is it a locality true specimen?wink
So that's what a Tully Jungle looks like.
Looks absolutely gorgeous.
More golden yellow than mid-yellow, I reckon.
Why would anyone want to mess with such perfection!
Tell me please Jungle man, is that a typical (though splendid) example of a Tully Jungle :?: .
Tully is a town, right?
So the Tully specimens are, I assume found around that township :?:
Is it a locality true specimen?
wink So that's what a Tully Jungle looks like.
Looks absolutely gorgeous.
More golden yellow than mid-yellow, I reckon.
Why would anyone want to mess with such perfection!
Tell me please Jungle man, is that a typical (though splendid) example of a Tully Jungle :?: .
Tully is a town, right?
So the Tully specimens are, I assume found around that township :?:
Dicco
Very Well-Known Member
How much do you usually ask for hatchling if you don't mind me asking?
ihaveherps
Well-Known Member
Tully! And i was looking to coross them!
im getting a pair of hatchling tullys this season, dont think they will be that specttacular, that is a great tully. as for this topic, i will not cross my tullys with any other locality jungle i will get in the future i like keeping them locality specific, but i do hope to get another pair off another tully breeder so i have more blood lines and i hope to acheive great lookers like that in the pic.
IMO athertons and jungles are different animals, sure they are a closely related sub-species but what I call true jungles are not athertons and I do not cross them although alot of breeders do.
I only keep tullys, parmerstons and mission beach jungles.
I have in the past but do not at the moment keep athertons.
Size and personality are the two biggest differences between the two IMO.
I only keep tullys, parmerstons and mission beach jungles.
I have in the past but do not at the moment keep athertons.
Size and personality are the two biggest differences between the two IMO.
olivehydra
Very Well-Known Member
Just my 2 cents......
Firstly I think the topic should be locality vs. race, as breeding for locality is just breeding for traits anyway. The first problem with any form of breeding is documentation, and if it does exist, the validity of it. People assign locality names to snakes based on traits. These traits are what the breeder considers normal or favourable, whilst often ignoring natural varience. The outcome is the same, selective breeding. Breeding locality without poaching WC specimens is exactly the same as breeding "designer" cross locality. Traits which people see as expressing a locality will be line bred with others of the same trait, so some may argue that locality pure animals are in fact more inbred than some designer crosses. Without introducing new blood (another discussion) people are dealing with a very finite (and common)gene pool, and to think one form of breeding is superior to the other is just personal taste.
Firstly I think the topic should be locality vs. race, as breeding for locality is just breeding for traits anyway. The first problem with any form of breeding is documentation, and if it does exist, the validity of it. People assign locality names to snakes based on traits. These traits are what the breeder considers normal or favourable, whilst often ignoring natural varience. The outcome is the same, selective breeding. Breeding locality without poaching WC specimens is exactly the same as breeding "designer" cross locality. Traits which people see as expressing a locality will be line bred with others of the same trait, so some may argue that locality pure animals are in fact more inbred than some designer crosses. Without introducing new blood (another discussion) people are dealing with a very finite (and common)gene pool, and to think one form of breeding is superior to the other is just personal taste.
Z
zen
Guest
TrueBlue said:-
Could you please elaborate on the size & personality differences between Athertons & Jungles :?:
Could you please elaborate on the size & personality differences between Athertons & Jungles :?:
Z
zen
Guest
You make some interesting points there Olive, but I disagree with some of them.
Like this statement
Not a solid argument IMO. Unless you mean that these "designer crosses" are between two different races or regions.
I reckon that most people would understand that 'locality true' has a broader range of variation than a 'designer morph'.
Like this statement
Not a solid argument IMO. Unless you mean that these "designer crosses" are between two different races or regions.
I reckon that most people would understand that 'locality true' has a broader range of variation than a 'designer morph'.
PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
zen
Let me try to clear things up a bit.
In the areas of the miniature jungles or lower rainforest forms, it is rare, yes rare to find a jungle as long as 6 foot and the average is about 4 in the wild. You will not find a ten foot jungle in this area naturally. When talking about the Atherton populations you can indeed find the occasional bright yellow jungle but it can not be said that this is a lower rain forest animal and further more, it is likely to grow to a large size eg up to 10 foot depending from what part of the range it was found. Size differentials between the two areas and populations is a very clear and reliable but I could not say that with colouration except for the well known generalization that Atherton are not as brightly coloured with yellow.
I have noticed other differences as well in regards to the colouration of their nasal scale. Lower rainforest jungles have completely black nasal scales where as many Athertons have infiltration of other colour through it even if subtle.
The problem with this whole discussion though is that there are areas that have the sympatric populations like the end of Tully gorge, Henrietta creek and many more. Most people do not have the full picture of this whole area which is riddled with valleys of rainforest varying in elevation coming from the Atherton down to the coast and anybody could easily be confused. With the jungle situation I personally believe that there are other factors that have influenced size differences over time between the Atherton and lower rainforest populations. I believe that generally speaking the lower rainforest morphs are more arboreal than their Atherton cousins and therefore probably have a slight difference in diet in terms of prey percentages. Have you ever wondered why coastals from Townsville etc and Athertons are commonly found around people houses and yet in areas like Tully, Innisfail, Mission beach jungles are only occasionally encountered even though they are very common? My belief is this is just a consequence of their habits eg less of more arboreal. Another interesting observation is that wild lower Rain forest jungles show far less enthusiasm for rats compared to mice but this can not be generally said as being true of wild caught Atherton or coastals.
Could this be a indication of differences of prey percentages? I would have to suspect so.
Cheers Dave
Let me try to clear things up a bit.
In the areas of the miniature jungles or lower rainforest forms, it is rare, yes rare to find a jungle as long as 6 foot and the average is about 4 in the wild. You will not find a ten foot jungle in this area naturally. When talking about the Atherton populations you can indeed find the occasional bright yellow jungle but it can not be said that this is a lower rain forest animal and further more, it is likely to grow to a large size eg up to 10 foot depending from what part of the range it was found. Size differentials between the two areas and populations is a very clear and reliable but I could not say that with colouration except for the well known generalization that Atherton are not as brightly coloured with yellow.
I have noticed other differences as well in regards to the colouration of their nasal scale. Lower rainforest jungles have completely black nasal scales where as many Athertons have infiltration of other colour through it even if subtle.
The problem with this whole discussion though is that there are areas that have the sympatric populations like the end of Tully gorge, Henrietta creek and many more. Most people do not have the full picture of this whole area which is riddled with valleys of rainforest varying in elevation coming from the Atherton down to the coast and anybody could easily be confused. With the jungle situation I personally believe that there are other factors that have influenced size differences over time between the Atherton and lower rainforest populations. I believe that generally speaking the lower rainforest morphs are more arboreal than their Atherton cousins and therefore probably have a slight difference in diet in terms of prey percentages. Have you ever wondered why coastals from Townsville etc and Athertons are commonly found around people houses and yet in areas like Tully, Innisfail, Mission beach jungles are only occasionally encountered even though they are very common? My belief is this is just a consequence of their habits eg less of more arboreal. Another interesting observation is that wild lower Rain forest jungles show far less enthusiasm for rats compared to mice but this can not be generally said as being true of wild caught Atherton or coastals.
Could this be a indication of differences of prey percentages? I would have to suspect so.
Cheers Dave
olivehydra, you will find many different traits in the same locality, so locality breeding is not nessecary done for certain traits and most of the different traits that jungles show will show up in all areas just some more prodominat in certain areas.
zen,- what I call true jungles rarely if ever exceed 5 foot whereas athertons on average will obtain a size of 8-10 feet.
Both tend to be cranky but athertons you can slap aroud the head a few times and they will still feed without hesitation, jungles on the other hand especially if they are highly strung animals wont feed if you look at them the wrong way. As a rule that is. There are allways exceptions.
zen,- what I call true jungles rarely if ever exceed 5 foot whereas athertons on average will obtain a size of 8-10 feet.
Both tend to be cranky but athertons you can slap aroud the head a few times and they will still feed without hesitation, jungles on the other hand especially if they are highly strung animals wont feed if you look at them the wrong way. As a rule that is. There are allways exceptions.
olivehydra
Very Well-Known Member
zen said:
Yes as I mentioned locality crosses previous to that statement, that is what I was referring to, sorry for the confusion. In regard to "locality true" I would have thought the opposite, people are often programmed to believe that race "X" expresses certain traits and stubornly refuse to accept that it can also express contrasting traits whilst still being locality true. An example might be the old Gosford high gold/yellow diamonds. One could still call a black and white a true Gosford, while some may disagree because it hasnt been bred to express high yellow. I think it is an interesting topic?
olivehydra
Very Well-Known Member
TrueBlue said:
I may have been misunderstood here TB. I'm fully aware of varience in locality, my point is local breeders pick traits which they feel best represent that locality and then line breed to strengthen those traits. When we have a relatively small gene pool, locality true breeders can in effect breed non true locals to strengthen a "locality type" and thus the supposed integrity is not really there.
Z
zen
Guest
Thanks Dave
Thanks heaps Dave & TrueBlue.
That's a tremendous wrap there. That's cleared things up beautifully.
Comprehensive & articulate.
You guys surely know your stuff.
So am I right in assuming that the true Jungle Python incorporates Tully, Innisfail & Mission Beach Jungles :?: .
Also is the Parmerston synonymous with the Innisfail Jungle :?: .
I prefer the terms you're using there too.
Perhaps we should adopt them when discussing Jungles.
i.e. - Lowland Jungles & Highland Jungles.
Or true Jungles (i.e Tully, Innisfail/Parmerston, Mission Beach) with Atherton or Tableland Jungles being somewhat seperate.
Much clearer I reckon.
Thanks again guys & good luck with your TrueBlue enterprise.
I'm sure it'll do brilliantly.
Cheers john
Thanks heaps Dave & TrueBlue.
That's a tremendous wrap there. That's cleared things up beautifully.
Comprehensive & articulate.
You guys surely know your stuff.
So am I right in assuming that the true Jungle Python incorporates Tully, Innisfail & Mission Beach Jungles :?: .
Also is the Parmerston synonymous with the Innisfail Jungle :?: .
I prefer the terms you're using there too.
Perhaps we should adopt them when discussing Jungles.
i.e. - Lowland Jungles & Highland Jungles.
Or true Jungles (i.e Tully, Innisfail/Parmerston, Mission Beach) with Atherton or Tableland Jungles being somewhat seperate.
Much clearer I reckon.
Thanks again guys & good luck with your TrueBlue enterprise.
I'm sure it'll do brilliantly.
Cheers john
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