DECC minimum enclosure size discussion.

[Slateman]

I am not one of the lucky few who have this super secret confidential information on this subject.
LOL. I can only assume what is happening.

To me all this looks like DECC have a proposal from an animal protective group, and are looking to sort things out the way which will please most people (or voters?).
I hate politics and so far our existing system worked well. There were always some cases where animals were abused, but this will happen anyway under new legislation.
My problem is that if the new rules will be too strict and hard to follow, people will stop applying for licences to avoid DECC inspector visits. All this will bring back bad practice of herp keeping from past, and people will deal with animals illegally. When they start illegal activity with local animals, they will not hesitate to introduce exotics to collections.
By my opinion a lot of good work would be undone.
I know that people always complain about authorities, but so far NSW officers did pretty well under the circumstances they had to deal with. It would be a shame to spoil the past effort they made.
Some how I strongly believe that all this will result with a reasonable outcome for this reason.

I tried to express my opinion in the best Slateman's English I could. Sorry for bad grammar.

 

[peterjohnson64]

Slatey I dont think grammar is your issue mate

Also, many years ago I was also a long way from my nearest herp society. Then we set up Mac Herps. Sure, it was just a blue tongue and bearded dragon club for a while but we are now being accepted as a mainstream herp group.

And I think you will also fond that the only organisation that put a formal submission to DECC to reclassify womas was Mac Herps. We had heard "rumours" for years that they were moving to class one but no one knew of anything concrete. So a formal submission went in and was addressed at an NAKCC meeting and then viola!

It is actually very easy to be at the forefront of herp regulation in NSW if you want to be.

 

[Slateman]

I agree Peter. There is always lot of complains and criticism , but not to much constructive action to fallow.

 

[PythonRob]

In my opinion.............

Everybody has their own thoughts, concerns, fears.

What about the welfare of reptiles? This should be the prime factor here.

All this talk about 'going underground', what a load of BS. Who wants to keep reptiles off license anymore, what value would they be if you ever wanted to sell them.

I am one of the first license holders from the amnesty in 1995 and remember how glad I was to get a licence from NPWS since not being allowed to have reptiles for about 10 years before that.

During some 20 years of reptile keeping I have seen some great collectors and I have seen some shockers. Cramped & Dirty cages, some with piles of poop and skins in them that have not been removed for weeks/months, even seen a large keeper with exhibitors license with dead reptiles in their cages and outdoor pits - disgusting.

My doors are always open to DECC if they wish to inspect, I have nothing to hide and glad to hold a license.

Personally (in my opinion again), I would like to get rid of some of the people who do not properly care for their reptiles from this hobby.

 

[pythonmum]

It is very sad to see animals in poor conditions. A friend of mine has snakes which have a serious build up of faeces and sheds, but he doesn't see the need to clean as soon as messes are made. IMO if a shed is in the enclosure for more than 24 hours, you are not doing the right thing by checking that it is complete. The best time to remove retained slough is right away! As for enclosure sizes, my Antaresia are in a 4x2x2 foot enclosure and they use every bit of the space, including the two climbing branches. Not sure what the recommendations for Morelia will be, but I checked my Darwin enclosure size with Simon Stone, so I hope I'll be right.

 

[Slateman]

In my opinion.............

Everybody has their own thoughts, concerns, fears.

What about the welfare of reptiles? This should be the prime factor here.

All this talk about 'going underground', what a load of BS. Who wants to keep reptiles off license anymore, what value would they be if you ever wanted to sell them.

I am one of the first license holders from the amnesty in 1995 and remember how glad I was to get a licence from NPWS since not being allowed to have reptiles for about 10 years before that.

During some 20 years of reptile keeping I have seen some great collectors and I have seen some shockers. Cramped & Dirty cages, some with piles of poop and skins in them that have not been removed for weeks/months, even seen a large keeper with exhibitors license with dead reptiles in their cages and outdoor pits - disgusting.

My doors are always open to DECC if they wish to inspect, I have nothing to hide and glad to hold a license.

Personally (in my opinion again), I would like to get rid of some of the people who do not properly care for their reptiles from this hobby.

Size of cage will not improve cleanliness, just opposite.

 

[shonny]

I hope everything works out good for your guys down there...I can only imagine you are all stressed about these changes,, I am glad though that I live in Qld our system is far less complicated then you guys..GOOD LUCK for a reasonable outcome for you all.

 

[Slateman]

Well I heard lot of new rumours and maybe there will be lot of upset people if things will not work out the right way for us.
This issue is really big concern at the moment. Maybe there is no good idea to pay your license in advance in NSW.

 

[-Matt-]

So your saying its looking pretty likely Slatey? Damn Ive just spent a fortune on all new enclosures and racks too...

 

[Simple]

I hope everything works out good for your guys down there...I can only imagine you are all stressed about these changes,, I am glad though that I live in Qld our system is far less complicated then you guys..GOOD LUCK for a reasonable outcome for you all.

If these laws are passed in NSW, it sets a precedence for the other states to follow. There would be people in every state considering the same laws.. This could be very serious for the hobby.

 

[Ramsayi]

It does seem that the minimum cage sizes that NPWS are considering have been grossly over stated.Lets just hope the committee that was formed to negotiate a positive outcome for all hobbyists decides to sit down with the DECC and offer some valuable input.God knows they have had long enough to do just that.

 

[Slateman]

If these laws are passed in NSW, it sets a precedence for the other states to follow. There would be people in every state considering the same laws.. This could be very serious for the hobby.

Exactly right Simple. NSW is just first step. Other states will fallow.
I strongly feel that all this is for the certain animal liberation group to stop people to keep wildlife as pets. This is just smart way to push this agenda.

 

[Slateman]

It does seem that the minimum cage sizes that NPWS are considering have been grossly over stated.Lets just hope the committee that was formed to negotiate a positive outcome for all hobbyists decides to sit down with the DECC and offer some valuable input.God knows they have had long enough to do just that.

problem is that there is large, well organized, rich lobby pushing this ridiculous change,
Badly organized reptile keepers in NSW will be last to consider in final decision.

As I know government officials, they will be looking for problem going away. That will not look well for reptile hobbyists in this state. We don't have powerful voice. Not at all.

 

[Ramsayi]

problem is that there is large, well organized, rich lobby pushing this ridiculous change,
Badly organized reptile keepers in NSW will be last to consider in final decision.

As I know government officials, they will be looking for problem going away. That will not look well for reptile hobbyists in this state. We don't have powerful voice. Not at all.

As I understand things the minimum caging requirements are being pushed by the likes of the RSPCA as a direct result of petshops in NSW pushing to be allowed to trade in reptiles.Basically if minimum requirements are not set then the RSPCA won't endorse petshops selling reptiles.

Reptile keepers in this state had been asked to provide input by NPWS thats why a member from each herp society formed the current committee.

At the end of the day like it or not NPWS will most likley legislate for minimum cage sizes.The question is do the committee try and block such changes or do they sit down with the DECC and try and negotiate an outcome that everyone can live with?

 

[FAY]

We can only hope that common sense prevails Rams and the outcome is the latter.

 

[funcouple]

common sence. what is that Fay?
i think herp committees need to work with DECC and find some common sence that will lead fair and sensible enclosure sizes. i dont think this is something that can be ignored and hope that it will go away. we have to be seen as being pro active and wanting the best for our animals, or the animal liberation groups along with the RSPCA will make it so difficult that it will be impossible to house our animals

 

[BJC-787]

i have a mate with an exhibitors licence
and when he was first going for it they came and inspected his enclosures for size and they said some hatchling childrens in small tubs were in to small of an enclosure,
the main thing that was the problem was that the book said they get to 1m long than the enclosure should be this big wether it is a hatchling or adult.

 

[Jay]

Any idea on the penalties they're proposing for not meeting cage sizes? Specifically hatchlings.

 

[Ramsayi]

i have a mate with an exhibitors licence
and when he was first going for it they came and inspected his enclosures for size and they said some hatchling childrens in small tubs were in to small of an enclosure,
the main thing that was the problem was that the book said they get to 1m long than the enclosure should be this big wether it is a hatchling or adult.

The DECC does not have duristriction over exhibitors.

Any idea on the penalties they're proposing for not meeting cage sizes? Specifically hatchlings.

As far as I am aware cage/tub sizes for hatchlings and sub adults are perfectly reasonable.I have no information regarding penalties at this stage.

 

[Boondocker]

Its based loosely around a few documents with Victoria's Code of Practice being one of them. The big difference being that Victoria's one is only a guideline whereas the NSW one will be a law.

G'day where does it say the minimum cage sizes are only guidlines in Victoria's Code of Practice? I couldn't find that anywhere in there. I hope you;re right.

It appears Slitherins racks are indeed too small for most pythons according to the minimum size requirements.listed the Victoria Code. Even Slitherins largest "boa" tub is not tall enough for woma pythons accordng to the Code.