DECC minimum enclosure size discussion.

[snakehunter]

Why would they do this for reptiles, as far as I know there aren't any minimum cage sizes for other protected fauna like birds or fish. What next, 5 acre backyards for large dogs?

 

[JasonL]

Why would they do this for reptiles, as far as I know there aren't any minimum cage sizes for other protected fauna like birds or fish. What next, 5 acre backyards for large dogs?

Not just reptiles, they are just the first group their doing, Native birds are next so I have heard.

 

[nat0810]

If it all goes throught, i can already see DECC cage size for birds.

"sorry sir, but u can't keep that trio of cockkies unless u have a cage the size of Acer Arena"

Fingers crossed that DECC take the hobby's views seriously, and keep the minimums sensible.

I will be curious to see their ideas on anphibian enclosure sizes.

 

[FAY]

I think the min cagesize business is more or less gearing up for the selling of reptiles in petshops in NSW.
God help that day!

 

[Jackrabbit]

There would have to be some kind of amnesty or morotorium.

Assuming these restrictions come into play and people have to start selling all or part of their collection. This will cause a wholsesale drop in prices for a while as people dispose of animals. Alternatively, people will be forced to illegally dump them into the wild. Does that beneift the animals any more?

Breeders aren't going to buy them as they won't have the space to house additional animals and even with an expected drop in prices no new hobbyists will probably jump in with the restrictions in place.

 

[bk201]

ah if breeders and keepers have to sell then petshops can buy them...
i think the govt just wants to be able to tax reptile keeping...since they cant if people sell privately...

 

[Jackrabbit]

I dont give a rats what DECC comes up with,i keep reptiles in cages and heat them,cycling etc the way i think is best,ive found that many species actually like living in the rack systems ile be getting more,they can go to billyo with there trendy ilinformed animal liberationist suck up ideas.

At what point did they say, "We like this rack system you keep us in keep it up and don't ever move us to something beig a roomy because we will only use this much space anyway?"

Can't imagine anything enjoys being kept in a rack system. Imagine your bedroom was your world, how long before you went crazy.

 

[bk201]

yea comparing reptiles to people doesnt prove a point.
people arent reptiles so makes no good comparison, people work out how the snake likes where it lives depending on how healthy it is and if it will breed.

 

[No-two]

At what point did they say, "We like this rack system you keep us in keep it up and don't ever move us to something beig a roomy because we will only use this much space anyway?"

Can't imagine anything enjoys being kept in a rack system. Imagine your bedroom was your world, how long before you went crazy.

It's easy to see if an animal enjoys the way it is kept, as ramsayi stated earlier on, if the animlas are not happy they won't breed, I agree animals can't say they like it but I'm quiet confident my snakes like the privacy and space provided by rack systems, racks allow you to keep them much much more hygenic, they heat very well and you can get a gradient very easily, a snake would happily live in one place in the wild if everything was provided to them in that one spot like in captivity.

 

[links]

Apparently Venom Supplies has recently done some research / trails on cage sizes and breeding sucess on a few species including coastal taipans. I hear second hand that the results are that taipans and other species are PROVEN to do better, and reproduce better in smaller enclosures.

I think people in general, including some of the people who have posted on this thread, need to relise that reptiles, snakes in particular, are not people, they are not dogs, cats, or anything else. They are snakes. They have extremely small brains, and live following very simple instincts and very simple thought processes.
A snake is not "happy" or "sad" or "bored" a snake doesnt sit there and say "wow, what a crappy small enclosure" A basic rule coming from research is if a snake is eating, *****ting, shedding, and breeding, then it is physically healthy, and 'emotionally" healthy. A stressed snake which is not satisfied with its environment wont eat, it wont be healthy, and most of all, it wont breed.

People really need to stop thinking snakes and reptiles have emotions and have thought processes comparable to humans. How do I know??? because research on animals ans brain size/composition tells us. Parts of our brain that process emotion, snakes dont have, and so on and so on.

Alot, and i mean hundreds if not thousands more experts that have studied and bred snakes will agree on smaller enclosures than DECC can possibly come up with that will say the contrary

Well said mate

 

[abbott75]

At what point did they say, "We like this rack system you keep us in keep it up and don't ever move us to something beig a roomy because we will only use this much space anyway?"

Can't imagine anything enjoys being kept in a rack system. Imagine your bedroom was your world, how long before you went crazy.

Anthropomorphising reptiles does nothing but force the hobby to take giant steps back.

 

[links]

At what point did they say, "We like this rack system you keep us in keep it up and don't ever move us to something beig a roomy because we will only use this much space anyway?"

Can't imagine anything enjoys being kept in a rack system. Imagine your bedroom was your world, how long before you went crazy.

HMMMM OK then another case of anthropomorphism:lol:

 

[JasonL]

I don't think I'd like to live my life under a rock, eat raw birds and mammals and have my skin crawling with worms either...but each to their own.

 

[FAY]

At what point did they say, "We like this rack system you keep us in keep it up and don't ever move us to something beig a roomy because we will only use this much space anyway?"

Can't imagine anything enjoys being kept in a rack system. Imagine your bedroom was your world, how long before you went crazy.

You would have to revert back to a 'natural history' and studies of species.
I have read or heard somwwhere a couple years ago, a university study was done on Pogona Barbata. The went no more that 100 metres in their whole life!!!

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Jackrabbit]

Anthropomorphising reptiles does nothing but force the hobby to take giant steps back.

Point taken. But saying they like something is plain wrong. If they liked it they would be curious about trying to get out. The fact that they brereb and don't appear stressed doesn't mean they would equally like something twice a big.

When they are not curled up hidding or sleeping they are out exploring their range for a meal. Their range is a lot larger than the enclosures we provide them with. What we currently provide them with, rack systems notwithstanding, is what has been condisered to be a reasonable size for us as hobbyists to house them in.

The fact that people get so upset about losing animals from cages only shows that it is not the animals that enjoys them it is us because it is a convenient size for us to keep and enjoy them in. Else people would say oh my snake has gone walk about, no worries it will be back soon because it is breeding and doesn't appear stressed.

That said I am not for the mandatory provision of too large enclosures because I probably couldn't provide the required space.

 

[Aslan]

Quite simply, before they start enforcing cage sizes they should start enforcing hygiene and husbandry issues. As has been pointed out, a tub/rack system of adequate size is a far more suitable environment in this regard than a bedroom sized enclosure.

This mandatory enclosure size issues has been an issue on the PETA (and similar agencies) agenda for some time. Whilst I personally have my own opinions on what I consider to be a mandatory size for my animals, these vary substantially for each person, and vary considerably from the proposals I was informed of months (if not longer ago)...

To put it into perspective, my recollection of what PETA were requesting as a minimum enclosure size for one Bluetongue was a 2m x 2m floor space. This is ridiculous and unreasonable.

I would like to think that common sense will prevail, however, having worked for the NSW State Government for some time now you might have to excuse me for being sceptical...

 

[Aslan]

Point taken. But saying they like something is plain wrong.

How does it differ from saying they DON'T like something?

 

[links]

Calm down everyone. After seeing the jewelled gecko thread, I have changed my mind about DECC. They can come in and have a look at my enclosure sizes, anytime, and ill just tell them that my perentie is a underwoodisaurus milli and my scrubby is a childrens python, the enclosure size will be perfect for those species under the new rules and the DECC wouldnt know any different:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[Jay]

Personally I think PETA and related groups should have very little if any involvement in regulations.
In all likeliness these groups know these cages are excessive and for the most part impractical, and after the end result of fewer animals being kept merely because it goes against a core belief for them.
The committee should be entirely made up of Herpetologists and Herpetoculturalists. They know what works naturally and what works in captivity without concerns.

 

[mungus]

I think the DECC are screwed unless they take proper advice from experienced keepers who are fairly large breeders.

Which it does seem they are doing (going by the woma decision).
If they come out with silly sizes like what this thread suggests, we are talking thousand's of cages, Hundreds of people. They will be swamped and overun with the mamoth impossible task.

Have a bit of faith people, I don't think they they really want to take on the people who have spent thousands on buying pairs of greens, albinos etc...

Imagine this "sorry but your cage sizes are under our new rule, we'll have to confiscate that trio of adult albino olives". yeh sure!

The only problem with the most experienced keepers is that at times they might have their own interest at heart. Some keep snakes in " too small enclosures " IMO, the smaller the cage, the more cages they can keep, which equals to more snakes, more breeding pairs, more hatchies, more $$$ etc.
So I'm in favour for a 1000W x 700D x 1800H enclosure for diamonds, jungles etc.
I cant see the problem really, and its got to be more benifical to the snake.............surely.
Just my 2 bob's worth.......:lol: