Another question about intergrades

[BROWNS]

You have done hard drugs in the past haven't you?Come on now i won't tell anyone but i recognise the signs all too well!!

 

[Parko]

There's a place somewhere where camels have callouses on their knee pads before they are born, it's an "improvement" on new borns who have no callouses on their knees and must scrape their knees on the sand which must be a real issue for camels.
cheers hope that helps..

 

[BROWNS]

lmao...camels!what camels?

 

[playwell]

This thread needs to be put down, I don't care if it's done in an unhumanly manner either.

JUST KILL IT PLEASE

 

[Greebo]

JUST KILL IT PLEASE

I'd like to but it seems to have evolved and now has a life of it's own.

 

[bigguy]

Pike raised a question that I have thought about for a long time. Whats to stop intergrades breeding with pures and spreading north and south increasing the range. If this did happen by now there would be no pures left, so whats the answer.

Maybe its to do with DNA. DNA tests have shown that there is a difference between the intergrades and pures. Maybe, just maybe the two can tell they are different in the wild and do not mix often.

In the wild we often find similar species living side by side, however they don't appear to interbreed. Put them in captivity and they often interbreed as they dont have a choise who to breed with. I believe this is the case with pures and intergrades. Its the only answer to explain why this contamination does not occur throughout the range of pures. In the wild they can tell, possibly by pheremones that they are different and rarely interbreed

As for the 20klm I mentioned, I was just stating as an example only, that only 20klms from where the intergrades appear to stop, we only find pures. There is no gap between them. They live side by side on the border areas.

 

[bigguy]

As for the question put forward re Aussie Greens breeding with PNG Greens, this cant happen in the wild. There tends to be a ocean inbetween them. But if it did happen they would be a hybrid.

The paper written in SA on the DNA of GTP's showed that the GTP's from Australia and southern PNG are very similar. But it does go on to say there appears to be 4 variations in the species. As once explained to me imagine these southern GTP's were in one room. There is enough variation in them to put them in 4 different corners of the room. These 4 variations could be deemed sub species. The northern form is in a different room and probably should be a seperate species.

Australian Carpets are exactly the same. DNA has shown that the southern PNG Carpet, the Top End, Coastal, Jungles, Murray/Darlings, Diamonds and their relevant intergrades are all from the same species, with slight variations with each sub species. However, where a major gap has occurred between the Carpets such as Centralians and SouthWestern we find that they are completely different species.

 

[SnakeWrangler]

There tends to be a ocean inbetween them.

This would pose a little problem wouldn't it.

The paper written in SA on the DNA of GTP's showed that the GTP's from Australia and southern PNG are very similar. But it does go on to say there appears to be 4 variations in the species. As once explained to me imagine these southern GTP's were in one room. There is enough variation in them to put them in 4 different corners of the room. These 4 variations could be deemed sub species. The northern form is in a different room and probably should be a seperate species.

So are the northern form classified as a seperate species or is it too close to really make a decision either way??

 

[Pike01]

Yep i have thought long and hard about it too, i was thinking maybe be cause the gene flow is going both ways it is like the tide in an estuary, the sea water is pushing upstream and the fresh water is downstream , there is always brackish water at the same spot. Unless of course there is something external that changes things one way or the other, like a king tide - more salty water, or a flood- more freshwater. Or maybe the intergrade zone is slowly growing and in another 20,000 years they will all look the same. I have heard this question asked to Rick Shine, he didnt know the answer, just said maybe you have to look like a diamond where diamonds live, an intergrade where intergrades are found and a carpet where carpets are found. All only theories, not saying i know the answer or that any of these are the answer.

Bob, havent seen any of the DNA work but would be really interested to read it, Who did it?

 

[bigguy]

Steve Donnelly of the SA Museum did the GTP paper. As for the Carpets work, I am not sure who did the work, I only know of it a Dave Williams from this site was involved and he imformed me of the results.

 

[bigguy]

Pike, if they did freely interbreed at the borders they would spread at a very fast rate and the borders would move a great deal each year, yet the northern border has not moved to my knowledge at all over the last 40 years.

This should show they dont interbreed often at the borders, so they must be able to tell the difference between themselves and not interbreed.

 

[bigguy]

Sw, the northern PNG GTP's are so far removed from their southern cousins that one day they will be seperated as a different species. but I dont think its happened yet.

 

[angelrose]

Man i love this site, everytime there is a mention of integrades it turns into a 12 page saga... lol, im not even going to join in, i just wanted to have a giggle.... there you go...

Angel

 

[Pike01]

Big guy, 40 years is the life of one carpet, If they did breed at this cut off point, some would look more like carpets , some more like intergrades, which is exactly what happens at this area, thats why the ones further north lookmore like carpets and down south they look more like diamonds. If intergrades are a different sub species and not breeding with carpets and diamonds, they would all look the same.

 

[indicus]

"I agree, i believe they do in most cases know the difference with their own kind and they tend to mate with there own kind....obviously where the two gene pools occur to meet, there has been interbreeding, the result is a combination of the two, which over time became its own morph and mates with its own kind.......this may explain why they dont spread dramaticaly into each pure gene pool on either side.....who really knows?"

 

[bigguy]

Pike, no they wouldn't. Intergrades are genectically different from pures, but they don't all look the same. They are where Carpets slowly turn into Diamonds so at the northern end they more closely resemble Carpets, in the middle 50/50 and at the southern ends more like Diamonds. So by looking throughout their range you can see the change taking place from Carpets to Diamonds.

If the two races freely interbred the northern border would have easily moved from Coffs to nearly Grafton in just 40 years, yet the border hasn't moved at all

 

[SnakeWrangler]

I think it is safe to say that everyone believes there would be some kind of interbreeding going on where each forms range meets. Maybe the reason you see some fairly varied patterned diamonds within the diamond range testifies to the fact that the integrades are moving into other ranges, just a thought, I mean it would be sad to see the various forms "tainted" by having integrades mixed in, but maybe it is inevitable, lets hope not.

 

[Stevo]

I would like an experts view on what this is an intergrade or a diamond, I do know its locale.

 

[dee4]

If your happy and you know it clap your hands

clap clap
Pics don't do justice for the python stevo.

Different light, different angle may give more detail to the colouring, I can't tell the diff on the patterns with that one.
I'm interested aswell as to see what others think as I am no expert!

 

[bigguy]

dee4, I agree with you. I would want to see a better picture first before giving any comment. That ones just to dark to tell.