chondros

[lutzd]

It was probably a bit unfair, unlocking the thread at this stage, as Bob did say he was going to be away for a couple of weeks, so he can't reply. :-( Oh well, maybe he'll reply when he gets back .... Sorry Bob!

 

[obee]

yes hix my understanding is other races ,by dna, are different from sth png and oz.sth png and oz are indistinguishable as they are so close.close because gene flow would even to this day, to a certain extent be still occurring. previous as oz and sth png were the same landmass both populations would have been one.ppl forget we are talking about an imaginery line .an nt bhp if it moved 100 mts across the qld border would then become a qld bhp.but dna would say they were the same.
red deer swim from png into australian territory[top torres strait islands] this is how close we are to sth png.


obee

 

[Pinkie]

oh and sorry dave,i do know they were confiscated,ray field told me the whole bob whithey story.at his house one day.

Ray told me some GTP stories at his house one day too. He is a nice guy. Did you see his chondros Obee?

 

[basketcase]

i wonder if there wouldve been this big thing about it if the animals in question were $100 acanthophis rugosus - death adders from png

 

[obee]

i wonder if there wouldve been this big thing about it if the animals in question were $100 acanthophis rugosus - death adders from png

yes mate thats a good point,somehow i don't think so.

no pinkie i haven't seen rays gtp's but are mates with dan at billabong and he tells me they are going well.lovely bloke ray very interesting day that one.he locked his keys in the car when we were visiting other herpo's.so to pass the time we chatted gtp's.

obee

 

[Pinkie]

Lol. Ranger Dan is a champ "we're awesome" heheh

 

[Hickson]

yes hix my understanding is other races ,by dna, are different from sth png and oz.sth png and oz are indistinguishable as they are so close.close because gene flow would even to this day, to a certain extent be still occurring. previous as oz and sth png were the same landmass both populations would have been one.ppl forget we are talking about an imaginery line .an nt bhp if it moved 100 mts across the qld border would then become a qld bhp.but dna would say they were the same.
red deer swim from png into australian territory[top torres strait islands] this is how close we are to sth png.

Obee,

I understand what you're saying, and your reasoning, but I can't agree.

The last time PNG and OZ were connected was about 18,000 years ago when the world's ocean levels dropped. Since then the PNG and Oz populations have existed in mutual isolation. That's certainly long enough for the populations to differentiate. Genetic studies of Canadian wolves that had been isolated on an island showed that their genetics were distinct from the mainland population. In fact, the researchers were able to calculate how long the wolves had been isolated from the mainland by determining the amount of genetic drift. And they'd been separated only a hundred or so years - so the Chondros 18,000 years should be a cinch to play around with.

Boigu Island (I think that's it's name) is Australia's northernmost point, only 6 km from PNG mainland. For chondros from Australia to move between Oz and PNG, they would have to swim between islands, and then across 6 kms of water. And for them to have a major effect on the genetics of PNG populations, there would have to be a significant number making the crossing quite regularly.

I just want to point out that I'm not having a go at anyone here, but if the two populations are genetically the same, then I'm very curious as to why.

Maybe somebody knows someone who is (or has been) researching the genetics of the species as a whole. If so, I'd love to speak to them.

Sorry if this got too technical and really boring for the majority of APS members. I tend to go on a bit sometimes. Especially when I don't understand something. :?

Hix

 

[jimmy_the_kid]

i just want 1they r so kewl

 

[obee]

great points hix and very valid statements.i work with 7 torres strait islanders.boigu,yam,darnley,badu and one saibai elder.gtps are known to them all.the old saibai man has told me they are of tribal significance to him and his family and to hurt one is a bad thing.he complained to me that young fellas had killed 2 on his visit home last year.flood time in png he said sends flood rubbish miles out from the islands and they have found gtp's amongst other animals, on flood rubbish.he says the currents move in a southerly direction so the idea of an oz gtp going to sth png or torres strait islands is highly unlikely,practically impossible.as far as island hopping by swimming i doubt it very much.so the gene flow from what they tell me would only be one way.i have png carved timber masks that these guys have brought back to me washed up on east coast cape beaches.they can tell by the carvings sometimes who even did them they call them rubbish ,amazing. i asked him today whether any of the gtp's he see's are blue and he said", no, and then somteimes but they are the brightest of green i have ever seen." he is 65 but looks like he is 40.
wolves are completely different to reptiles and after 100 yrs they are genetically different to the mainlanders , because that is a closed gene pool and mammals are less tolerent of inbreeding than reptiles.wolves would be expected to show a significant change and quickly.
18000 yrs[i thought it was longer] is still only a spec in time and if the oz and png populations were mutually isolated then dna would show, you would expect.but the dna can't seperate them maybe another 18000 yrs.the original inhabitants of the torres strait say the movement isn't intentional,not often, but still natural.they have found live pigs even a human body out to sea during flood times out of site of land.


obee

 

[toxinologist]

According to Rawlings & Donnelan (2003) their mtDNA studies on specimens from limited areas of New Guinea and Australia suggest that there may be two distinct species (northern PNG and southern PNG/Australia) although they concede sampling is insufficient to conclusively demonstrate this.

The levels of sequence divergence between southern PNG snakes and Australian snakes was very low. Like Morelia amethistina, these snakes dispersed into Australia from PNG - probably quite recently according to estimates - and by using transient land bridges that also enabled the migration of other Papuan flora and fauna - rather than by swimming or island hopping ...

If anyone wants to read the Rawlings & Donnelan paper and get the facts, it can be downloaded from my website:

http://www.kingsnake.com/aho/pdf/menu2/rawlings2003.pdf

Interestingly one of their concluding observations is that low levels of breeding success among Australian collections may be due to people having attempted breedings between northern PNG and southern PNG/Australian animals.

I must say that I personally find it baffling that people are having trouble maintaining these snakes. Mine thrive in a well planted vivarium without any species tricks or gimmicks, and the only way to prevent breeding would be to get rid of the snakes ... :shock:

Cheers


Dave

 

[Hickson]

Thanks Obee,

I hadn't even thought about the floods.

And I know the genetics between mammals and reptiles is different, but the principles should be the same. Just different variables.

Which is why they're called variables. :lol:

Hix

 

[zoe]

you know, as a half joke half serious thing i said to a friend yesterday, wouldnt it be funny if you could give a gtp to a relatively inexperienced herper (like myself lol) and let them take care of it like they would a carpet maybe (with obviously correct humidity etc etc) and it would thrive? sometimes i wonder if these things get babied too much, for eg: why, when working at the vet for 2 1/2 years, did i find that the animals that were babied to buggery were the ones that had the most problems? one particular family had 2 dogs and you name the problem, they had or have it. i know dogs are different to herps but i still cant help but wonder. americans dont seem to have as much troubles with gtps as we do...but hey, who wants to take that chance with a $5000 snake?

sorry if that sounds like a really dumb thing to say but it sorta makes a weird kind of sense to me lol

 

[africancichlidau]

Me too

 

[toxinologist]

Yes Zoe ...

To be really honest with you I think people are babying the poor little yellow buggers to death ... I mean for God's sake people these things THRIVE in backyards in parts of Port Moresby ... :shock:

Dave

 

[obee]

According to Rawlings & Donnelan (2003) their mtDNA studies on specimens from limited areas of New Guinea and Australia suggest that there may be two distinct species (northern PNG and southern PNG/Australia) although they concede sampling is insufficient to conclusively demonstrate this.

obee says
hi david where have you been.thought you would be here a lot sooner.hows things?i have no knowledge of rawlings & donnelan work but your post confirms what i said in the last post.

david says
The levels of sequence divergence between southern PNG snakes and Australian snakes was very low. Like Morelia amethistina, these snakes dispersed into Australia from PNG - probably quite recently according to estimates - and by using transient land bridges that also enabled the migration of other Papuan flora and fauna - rather than by swimming or island hopping ...

obee says
as i said in the last post 18000 years is but a speck. well in evolutionary terms.i also said not by swimming.landbridge definatately and southernly movement, i also said.the occurance of island hopping i also said was not often but gtp's have been seen on floodrubbish so it does happen.

david says
and the only way to prevent breeding would be to get rid of the snakes ... :shock:

obee says
ray field stated they were the easiest animals of all australian species to get viable eggs from.getting them to hatch was the tricky part.

RAWLINGS & DONNELAN WON'T LAST LONG ON THIS SITE BECAUSE THEY THING LIKE ME.
good to hear from ya david.


obee

 

[Hickson]

They 'thing' like you?

Lol

hix

 

[obee]

zoe i agree with you totally and have been saying that for years about k9's as far as babying.i have 5 hunting dogs and have had hunting dogs as long as i could remember.when i was younger if one of my dogs didn't get to me quick enough when i called their was something wrong and off to the vet i would go.rediculous.the vet said to me you are great for business cause you bring your dogs in even when there is nothing wrong...lol
treat em mean keep em thriving was the attitude i went into the gtp plan with and one prolapse is all i have had,absolutely no special treatment and they have powered.


obee

 

[obee]

thought you would like that one hix,think like me...lol


obee

 

[obee]

one behavior you would have seen many times david is when assist feeding hatchlings[if required]they do their very convincing i'm dead impersonation.so affective i thought the first time it happened it was dead for certain.15 mins later still upside down,no movement at all,limp in the hands.i put it back in the enclosure and 30 mins later it was back up on the perch.this is a horrible thought,i know a few ppl that experienced the same thing.hatchlings died so into the freezer.


obee

 

[bigguy]

Obee,

The only flaw in my thread is that I used the term breeder when comparing myself with Bob Buckley. I should have used 20 years experience, as I used in all my other threads. One slipup only by myself does not change the facts I stated.

Now back to your aguement. Just because DNA can not seperate the 2 Greens, does not mean PNG's are Aussie Greens. Now to put a real wedge in your aguement, the Australian Green Python has now been described as a seperate sub species from its PNG cousins.

The description states that this new sub species is only found in Australia, and quite clearly states does not include any Greens from PNG. The author of this decription stated also, that he delayed publishing till the Buckley case was over, as it may have been used against him.

Now people with PNG type greens can no longer say there is no difference between Aussie and PNG types and hide behind the fact DNA shows little difference. Unless both parents are Australian, how could they possably be "deemed Australian" now that they are descibed as different.

As for Gregs comments. They were not given in reply to a one sided arguement. Heres another email I have just rec'd from Greg stating he will be discussing the differences between the 2 types when he finally does a revision of his Chondro book.



Hi Bob,

I hope it helps, but like you I sort of doubt it will do much good. We fight this kind of stuff continually over here, and most of these dealers ignore us and the facts, and keep placing ads making all kinds of bogus locality claims. I fully intend to comment on this issue (of Aussie greens vs. PNG) when the book is revised. The first printing is almost sold out, and I'm not sure if the publisher is going to simply reprint or do a full fledged revision. Both are being discussed. A revised edition will almost certainly be done at some point, but it might be a couple years from now.


Take care,

Greg Maxwell

Again readers, please note I am not attacking OBEE in any way. I again am just quoting facts. Read them all and make up your own as to wether his could be called Australian, PNG's or Hybrids between the 2 races.

Remember also, there is little DNA difference between Carpet Python types, but if I cross a Darwin with a Inland it is now a hydrid and would not be called either of these species by any reputable breeders. How then can Obee still claim that his are Australian, when he admits a PNG type is in the breeding and Aussie Greens are now a seperate sub species.

Bob