Hybrids, against or for it? Read this!

[indicus]

Peter, you are a man of great wisdom, and i wish to be the bearer of your babies.:lol:

Does your dad own a brewery?

 

[Miss B]

i dont see much problem in german giants, beign p. vitticeps and p. barbata. it can strengthen, lengthen and build the future animals. this trait is very much saught after overseas.

The problem is that it's a hybrid. And yes, German Giants are quite sought after... in America. The same place where many Australian python species are regularly cross-bred Same with the P. vitticeps and P. henrylawsonii cross - the Vittikins. The Yanks will cross-breed just about anything Doesn't make it right...

 

[ravensgait]

I see it is that time of year again !! One thing I'd like to point out is that Hybrids tend to be infertile IE Mules ETC where Intergrades as an example DiamondXJungle are fertile. And who ever made the cattle and dog crossbreeding is bad!comment needs to do some real research. There are breeds of Cattle and Breeds of dogs their get are only as good or bad as the parents they come from. This is like discussing inbreeding or religion IE emotions and ideals ETC get in the way.

Here is something that was posted on another forum and I think it isn't an unreasonable view

Quote/

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]Your confusing monitors with people. First, there is nothing wrong with crossing(hybrids)in monitors. The problem is with some people who intentionally or unintentionally mislabel them. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]In the case of your flavis. After I stopped breeding them, they flat disappeared. Leaving nothing but crosses. I am again producing pure flavis. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]So your beef is really with those people. You must ask yourself, what do the monitors have to do with it. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]You did not mentioned it, but I am responsible for many crosses(that you mentioned) But, some occur by folks, who do not even realize they are breeding two different species. This is very common. Or people who flat do not care. This world is full of all manner of folks. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]This has even occurred in zoos with mangrove types, doreanus types and gouldi types. They did not do it on purpose. They just did not know, what they had was different. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]As you know, new species are discribed all the time. The reality is, no new species are being created. We are just giving the animals that exsist, different names. Which boils down to this, what was not hybrids or crosses ten, fifteen years ago, is today. And will be even more tomorrow. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]So the actual point is not to like it or dislike it, it does and WILL occur, the concern is how me manage it. If its in the forefront, it can be managed. But if its hidden, then who knows what your getting. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]When so-called experts(suedo purists) make this subject about good and bad(choosing to like or dislike it), it really is making it a very harmful situation. Then people polarize. Those that think its bad, may hide it. Its going to happen and we really do not want it hidden. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]Crossing is not bad, but hiding it is. ARe you getting this. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]Lastly, no one has to like it, just as no one has to like all monitors, or all individuals, or all species. But you do not have to make what you do not like, A BAD THING. Please consider this. Cheers /Quote[/FONT]​

I have to agree it is better to keep it out in the open as there is no way anyone can stop it. Me I say to each his own..
Randy​

 

[cement]

Randy sounds American and on the assumption that that dribble was written by an Amarican, I can only say that is why your associates are frustrated with not being able to find pureblood sub species.
Its not a good thing when all you can say about your friends snake, "wow nice carpet".

 

[junglepython2]

where Intergrades as an example DiamondXJungle are fertile.

Please tell me that's only to fire people up?

 

[Kirby]

The problem is that it's a hybrid. And yes, German Giants are quite sought after... in America. The same place where many Australian python species are regularly cross-bred Same with the P. vitticeps and P. henrylawsonii cross - the Vittikins. The Yanks will cross-breed just about anything Doesn't make it right...

Miss B, im sure you already know, that i am more than understanding your statments. but hey its fun to feel smart.

i speak regularly to someone who soon will be reciving six or seven p. barbata's which are pure barbata from germany. these are extremely rare and sought after, and i am terribly glad to say that this person (continuelly un-named as per their orders) most likely will not be breeding them, rather for studies. (nice studies, not jabby needles etc. etc.)

these animals most likely will not effect, or reach US stock as the saught after barbata blood.

beardie hybrid blood is overwhelmingly saught after due to its tendancy to form healthier, faster, stronger, larger animals. if this is true (purest thoughts aside) is it not 'ok' for the US stock which is incredibly weakened by adeno, and lack of 'fresh genes' and inbreeding etc. etc. to become strengthened by this hybrid blood.

hybridisation, 'can' have a positive effect on such stock. although i would like to see 'our' animals, naturally 'healthy' stay seperated from vitticeps and barbata.

i personally suggested the 'lending' or this persons barbata genes (breeding loan) as a means of funding their research, assuming these german barbata's are adeno free. as breeders will pay top dollar. but supprisingly and somewhat comfortingly the idea was passed off as unnecessary.

please do not PM me, or kick up dust about this un- named person, i will not name them.

within Australia, hybridisation of Pogona, is unnecessary considerign our 'healthy' and strong stock. soemone will probably end up doing it, hopefully unsuccessfuly. within the area of pythons, some find these interesting and favourable. i would like to see our australian animals remain their own species. diamonds, stay diamonds, coastals stay coastals.

some look ugly, some are look alright. i wouldnt buy them as we are more than capable of purchasing clean species specific animals.

to some extent i also beleive selective breeding can be unethical, when the animal is no longer itself. it become unscaled, or lesser scaled. eg the silk or leather backs. we havent had unscaled diamondXcoastals, so the majority wouldnt care to bicker on the subject.. :lol:

miss b, i agree, just because some or alot of people do or use something, doesnt make it right. its not just the yanks, we have european, and other global members with hybrids as well. theres an irish guy isnt their?

 

[jay76]

Just a quick question ....How do we know that the snakes we are getting now a pure blood. Even some WC snakes overlap in the areas where they live. People have been breeding snakes for a long time and how many are really pure blood. I am not saying crossing is ok, its just a question I dont know the answer for.

 

[Kirby]

Just a quick question ....How do we know that the snakes we are getting now a pure blood. Even some WC snakes overlap in the areas where they live. People have been breeding snakes for a long time and how many are really pure blood. I am not saying crossing is ok, its just a question I dont know the answer for.

try your hardest to find a breeder that has good records. possibly right back to when they were wildcaught. or at least many many generations. you can never really be entirely sure. if there is a possibility of hybridisation in your breedign stock, or in your snakes. it is ALWAYS best to tell the buyer, as we dont want hidden hybrid blood snakes out classified as pure.

this is probably the biggest problem.

 

[jay76]

try your hardest to find a breeder that has good records. possibly right back to when they were wildcaught. or at least many many generations. you can never really be entirely sure. if there is a possibility of hybridisation in your breedign stock, or in your snakes. it is ALWAYS best to tell the buyer, as we dont want hidden hybrid blood snakes out classified as pure.

this is probably the biggest problem.

I agree. As I said earlier the childrens, spotteds ect were all classed as the same snake up intill a few years ago in QLD so how many people are selling childrens pythons that have something else mixed in with them even if was 3 or 5 generations ago.

 

[Kirby]

I agree. As I said earlier the childrens, spotteds ect were all classed as the same snake up intill a few years ago in QLD so how many people are selling childrens pythons that have something else mixed in with them even if was 3 or 5 generations ago.

wow, i dint realise that... it is possible these days for breeders to breed their own wild caught, childrens and spotteds. most probably for this very reason. there is a breeder in WA that has alot of wild caught for sale, and often wild caught captive bred clutches. this 'should' guaruntee a pure childrens, or a pure spotted.

 

[jay76]

wow, i dint realise that... it is possible these days for breeders to breed their own wild caught, childrens and spotteds. most probably for this very reason. there is a breeder in WA that has alot of wild caught for sale, and often wild caught captive bred clutches. this 'should' guaruntee a pure childrens, or a pure spotted.

That would be the only way I think to be shore that you have pure blood reptiles

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

Because someone that sell them to you, say that they are pure. Thats how you know!!!! And everybody they deal with they tell that they are locality pure. Word of mouth, what a great way to know you are getting locality pure animals. Trust is really overrated!!!!

 

[jay76]

Because someone that sell them to you, say that they are pure. Thats how you know!!!! And everybody they deal with they tell that they are locality pure. Word of mouth, what a great way to know you are getting locality pure animals. Trust is really overrated!!!!

Thats what I was getting at. It is mostly word of mouth. Unless you were there when the breeder got them as WC it is all word of mouth.

 

[Parko]

This thread was worth reading just for the line about hybridisers being artists, classic.

''Ah Picasso, legend of Eurotrash herpetoculture, you have created a masterpiece python, and in true picasso style i can't tell what the hell it's meant to be''. Lol

 

[Frozenmouse]

has anyone crossed a woma with a bhp?

 

[krusty]

has anyone crossed a woma with a bhp?

not yet but i'm working on it,do you want me to pm you when i have some luck........

 

[krusty]

here is some pics of that WOMA X CARPET from the U.S.A what do you's think.

 

[jay76]

they the first ones or have they been doing it for a while. Never thought I would see that

 

[krusty]

that was the first one but that one was from 06|07 season or 05|06 not a 100%
so there could be more this year.

 

[Jonno from ERD]

I see it is that time of year again !! One thing I'd like to point out is that Hybrids tend to be infertile IE Mules ETC where Intergrades as an example DiamondXJungle are fertile. And who ever made the cattle and dog crossbreeding is bad!comment needs to do some real research. There are breeds of Cattle and Breeds of dogs their get are only as good or bad as the parents they come from. This is like discussing inbreeding or religion IE emotions and ideals ETC get in the way.

Here is something that was posted on another forum and I think it isn't an unreasonable view

Quote/

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]Your confusing monitors with people. First, there is nothing wrong with crossing(hybrids)in monitors. The problem is with some people who intentionally or unintentionally mislabel them. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]In the case of your flavis. After I stopped breeding them, they flat disappeared. Leaving nothing but crosses. I am again producing pure flavis. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]So your beef is really with those people. You must ask yourself, what do the monitors have to do with it. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]You did not mentioned it, but I am responsible for many crosses(that you mentioned) But, some occur by folks, who do not even realize they are breeding two different species. This is very common. Or people who flat do not care. This world is full of all manner of folks. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]This has even occurred in zoos with mangrove types, doreanus types and gouldi types. They did not do it on purpose. They just did not know, what they had was different. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]As you know, new species are discribed all the time. The reality is, no new species are being created. We are just giving the animals that exsist, different names. Which boils down to this, what was not hybrids or crosses ten, fifteen years ago, is today. And will be even more tomorrow. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]So the actual point is not to like it or dislike it, it does and WILL occur, the concern is how me manage it. If its in the forefront, it can be managed. But if its hidden, then who knows what your getting. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]When so-called experts(suedo purists) make this subject about good and bad(choosing to like or dislike it), it really is making it a very harmful situation. Then people polarize. Those that think its bad, may hide it. Its going to happen and we really do not want it hidden. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]Crossing is not bad, but hiding it is. ARe you getting this. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, verdana, times new roman]Lastly, no one has to like it, just as no one has to like all monitors, or all individuals, or all species. But you do not have to make what you do not like, A BAD THING. Please consider this. Cheers /Quote[/FONT]​

I have to agree it is better to keep it out in the open as there is no way anyone can stop it. Me I say to each his own..

Randy​

Every Randy rabbits on about in his post is easily avoidable by breeding animals pure to their location...problem solved.