Hybrids, against or for it? Read this!

[jay76]

Well this might be a stupid question but i will ask anyway
Are Jags carpet we see from overseas site hybrids? they don't look nothing like our australian
carpets that i've seen and they call them coastals??????


Leigh

I am not for or against what people do with there own snakes. But yes Jags are a cross(hybrid) and most people on this site would give there left one to own a pair

 

[Simple]

I am not for or against what people do with there own snakes. But yes Jags are a cross(hybrid) and most people on this site would give there left one to own a pair

The original Jag line was from a coastal to coastal mating.

 

[jay76]

The original Jag line was from a coastal to coastal mating.

who cares about original, Jags are all now crossed

 

[aspidito]

As Slateman stated dont knock the newbies, we all were there once & this is how people learn, this is a never ending discussion & it is a healthy one.
Its so ironic that we are envied by the Americans & Europeans because the majority of our animals are pure blood true locality specific, they have no idea where their Australian herps originated from as over the years they have been so mixed up, they would kill for a pair of pure Uluru womas etc & yet we envy them for the huge array of albinos, coloured morphs & hybrids that are available. No matter what peoples views are we will follow the overseas trend & hybrids will be in demand & like everything else if you dont keep up you will be left behind, I can see a time when (this is purely hypothetical) that 'Snake ranch' will have specials on Striped Darwin X Bredli albinos, too far away you think, well elsewhere its already been done!. I just hope that we dont make the same mistake & that 20 years down the track when we have all the hybrids under the sun we still have all of our pure locality specific animals to replace the ones that have been lost in collections & wiped out in the wild.
Food for thought, scary for some & cant wait for others.

 

[Midol]

I will never understand.

There is nothing wrong with Hybrid dogs, cats, cattle, horses and people!

What make herps so special?

Wrong.

All of Australias top traininers, breeders and vets advocate purebred dogs. Hybrid dogs are not alright, only those who lack basic knowledge and feel the need to justify their ill bred mutts justify it. There is nothing that backs up that crosses are a "good" idea.

ETA: Expanding on this with cattle, cross bred cattle are not bred to be healthy. This is hybrid vigour in the flesh. They are crossed to create meat cows FAST. To reach adult size FAST and in doing this they sacrifice the HEALTH of the animal. So many people overlook this when comparing other animals to cattle. So really, comparing reptiles or dogs to cattle should only be done if you intend to eat your animals.

We should always be promoting our animals in the best manner possible. Creating a hybrid is creating a designer snake, a snake designed by humans for humans. Created only for money. That's a big issue for me, animals such as dogs, snakes and other animals that are not bred in agriculture should be bred for sound animals conforming to the standards of the animal and genetically sound.

 

[ExecutiveReptiles]

I havn't had time to read ALL the replies, but I actually know the author of the original post, it was copied and pasted as a new post from another forum, and the forum title was Purity Debate.

The original author is well known for his stance on being able to do whatever you want with whatever you want....and to make it clear he is in the United States and was refering to U.S. captive breeding of Australian pythons.

My personal opinion...

The issue many so called "Purists" have is that we have a VERY limited gene pool of what we all consider "Pure".....and it seems the term "Pure" upsets many people....and I really think they are taking the term "Pure" out of context in a way...

What the term Pure means to me is something that does not have purposley mixed blood in it....we all basically in our minds at least here in the States have this mental picture of what each subspecies of Morelia looks like...we might have our own little tweek of what we like, but there are general characteristics that we all can agree on that make up each subspecies...ie...what are the characteristics that make a Classic Coastal different than say a Diamond or a Bredl's....

Sure NONE of us have proof of anything...but with our limited gene pool all we can do is continue to try and recreate these "Natural" differences...But recently say in the past 10 years...there has been this massive trend to try and create something new...people seem tired of selective breeding for color or trying to make the best example of that subspecies...and now its all about what can we create...

Now I have no problem with extreme hybrid/intergrades....ones that look really strange/unique/different....can't be confused with any certain subspecies...What I have a problem with is the high % hybrids/intergrades...ones that have been bred to almost resemble a certain subspecies...

I think that is the biggest hardship for so called "purits"...there are many examples...Bredl's and Diamonds come to mind...There are people who work with high percentage diamonds...ones that are JunglexDiamond crosses, or CoastalxDiamond crosses...now at the 50% range...most of the time its more obvious...but when they start breeding those 50% to say another diamond...and producing 75%ers....and then again to make 88%.....they start looking more and more like true Diamonds....

Now Diamonds seem to be one of the more harder to get species here in the states...now we have to battle if they truely are real diamonds....I have had MANY friends who purcahsed diamonds as Diamonds...be knocked as not being pure....So people might knock purests...but there is a reason...many are so vocal...

What purists do...in breeding for certain natural looks....ie "Pure"....is they try and keep things pure...no other way of putting it....it does nothing to hurt anyone...but ensure that future generations of herpetoculturists can have the oppertunity to work with Coastals, Jungles, Diamonds, and Bredl's.....where when people breed whatever to whatever...those offspring go into the US gene pool of muddiness...where post after post say "I just got this Carpet...what is it?"....then we have to guess what it most looks like....time and time again...to the point where many times morelia subspecies are just labeled "Carpet Python" and not given any subspecies identification...cause nobody knows...its just a mutt...aka "Carpet Python"....

I have kept both hybrid/intergrades and so called "Pure" or Natural look....and I have many friends who work with both...and its a debate the has no end...it will keep going forver .....or at least untill Australia drops the export ban...lol

Its funny as the most vocal of both sides, never stop to see each others side...the future as I see it is the Hybrid/Intergrade keepers and breeders will continue to do what they do, and the so called "Purists" will just have to deal with the unkown...and continue to try and recreate those characteristics that make that natural look or as they call it "Pure Look"...

Breeding for the "Purest" you can get doesn't hurt anyone down the road...but the known mass production of crosses/hybrids/intergrades....does affect the ability of "Purists" down the road.....We can't get fresh bloodlines here in the states, If someone wants say....a Diamond they have to take the word of the breeder that his stock is "pure" diamond...and not just high%JunglexDiamond crosses....

But To each his own....Sorry for the long post..

 

[cockney red]

NUFF SAID.

As Slateman stated dont knock the newbies, we all were there once & this is how people learn, this is a never ending discussion & it is a healthy one.
Its so ironic that we are envied by the Americans & Europeans because the majority of our animals are pure blood true locality specific, they have no idea where their Australian herps originated from as over the years they have been so mixed up, they would kill for a pair of pure Uluru womas etc & yet we envy them for the huge array of albinos, coloured morphs & hybrids that are available. No matter what peoples views are we will follow the overseas trend & hybrids will be in demand & like everything else if you dont keep up you will be left behind, I can see a time when (this is purely hypothetical) that 'Snake ranch' will have specials on Striped Darwin X Bredli albinos, too far away you think, well elsewhere its already been done!. I just hope that we dont make the same mistake & that 20 years down the track when we have all the hybrids under the sun we still have all of our pure locality specific animals to replace the ones that have been lost in collections & wiped out in the wild.
Food for thought, scary for some & cant wait for others.

 

[cockney red]

Is this what we aspire to. Although some would say we're already there, we could certainly be there very quickly if we're not careful.:|

I havn't had time to read ALL the replies, but I actually know the author of the original post, it was copied and pasted as a new post from another forum, and the forum title was Purity Debate.

The original author is well known for his stance on being able to do whatever you want with whatever you want....and to make it clear he is in the United States and was refering to U.S. captive breeding of Australian pythons.

My personal opinion...

The issue many so called "Purists" have is that we have a VERY limited gene pool of what we all consider "Pure".....and it seems the term "Pure" upsets many people....and I really think they are taking the term "Pure" out of context in a way...

What the term Pure means to me is something that does not have purposley mixed blood in it....we all basically in our minds at least here in the States have this mental picture of what each subspecies of Morelia looks like...we might have our own little tweek of what we like, but there are general characteristics that we all can agree on that make up each subspecies...ie...what are the characteristics that make a Classic Coastal different than say a Diamond or a Bredl's....

Sure NONE of us have proof of anything...but with our limited gene pool all we can do is continue to try and recreate these "Natural" differences...But recently say in the past 10 years...there has been this massive trend to try and create something new...people seem tired of selective breeding for color or trying to make the best example of that subspecies...and now its all about what can we create...

Now I have no problem with extreme hybrid/intergrades....ones that look really strange/unique/different....can't be confused with any certain subspecies...What I have a problem with is the high % hybrids/intergrades...ones that have been bred to almost resemble a certain subspecies...

I think that is the biggest hardship for so called "purits"...there are many examples...Bredl's and Diamonds come to mind...There are people who work with high percentage diamonds...ones that are JunglexDiamond crosses, or CoastalxDiamond crosses...now at the 50% range...most of the time its more obvious...but when they start breeding those 50% to say another diamond...and producing 75%ers....and then again to make 88%.....they start looking more and more like true Diamonds....

Now Diamonds seem to be one of the more harder to get species here in the states...now we have to battle if they truely are real diamonds....I have had MANY friends who purcahsed diamonds as Diamonds...be knocked as not being pure....So people might knock purests...but there is a reason...many are so vocal...

What purists do...in breeding for certain natural looks....ie "Pure"....is they try and keep things pure...no other way of putting it....it does nothing to hurt anyone...but ensure that future generations of herpetoculturists can have the oppertunity to work with Coastals, Jungles, Diamonds, and Bredl's.....where when people breed whatever to whatever...those offspring go into the US gene pool of muddiness...where post after post say "I just got this Carpet...what is it?"....then we have to guess what it most looks like....time and time again...to the point where many times morelia subspecies are just labeled "Carpet Python" and not given any subspecies identification...cause nobody knows...its just a mutt...aka "Carpet Python"....

I have kept both hybrid/intergrades and so called "Pure" or Natural look....and I have many friends who work with both...and its a debate the has no end...it will keep going forver .....or at least untill Australia drops the export ban...lol

Its funny as the most vocal of both sides, never stop to see each others side...the future as I see it is the Hybrid/Intergrade keepers and breeders will continue to do what they do, and the so called "Purists" will just have to deal with the unkown...and continue to try and recreate those characteristics that make that natural look or as they call it "Pure Look"...

Breeding for the "Purest" you can get doesn't hurt anyone down the road...but the known mass production of crosses/hybrids/intergrades....does affect the ability of "Purists" down the road.....We can't get fresh bloodlines here in the states, If someone wants say....a Diamond they have to take the word of the breeder that his stock is "pure" diamond...and not just high%JunglexDiamond crosses....

But To each his own....Sorry for the long post..

 

[moreliainsanity]

I am not for or against what people do with there own snakes. But yes Jags are a cross(hybrid) and most people on this site would give there left one to own a pair

Thanks for the info jay76, So are they available in australia? if so what price tag would they sell for? being hybrids then they would not attract purist herpers, am i correct on this one?


Leigh

 

[junglepython2]

Thanks for the info jay76, So are they available in australia? if so what price tag would they sell for? being hybrids then they would not attract purist herpers, am i correct on this one?


Leigh

As the mutation came about overseas, they are not legally available in Australia and unless import rules change technically never will. However I'm sure they will start popping up sooner or later at inflated prices.

 

[CGSwans]

My snake is a hybrid. I say it's a Stimson's because that's what he looks more like, but one of the parents was a Spotted Python. I got him cheap because it was a hybrid - the breeder was just starting out, had an adult Spotted and an adult Stimson's and bred them to see how he went. He got three eggs, one of them hatched and so my snake is the only result.

I don't mind having a hybrid snake. He's got a wonderful disposition, he's got decent markings and he's very hardy. However, when I brought him I knew that it would be immoral of me to breed from him further. So he's purely a 'pet' snake. I'd like to breed snakes (and monitors and dragons) one day, but if my Houdini (he got his name as a hatchling for his uncanny ability to end up outside his cage ) is still with me when/if that happens, I guess he'll just have to watch others having the fun.

 

[jay76]

My snake is a hybrid. I say it's a Stimson's because that's what he looks more like, but one of the parents was a Spotted Python. I got him cheap because it was a hybrid - the breeder was just starting out, had an adult Spotted and an adult Stimson's and bred them to see how he went. He got three eggs, one of them hatched and so my snake is the only result.

I don't mind having a hybrid snake. He's got a wonderful disposition, he's got decent markings and he's very hardy. However, when I brought him I knew that it would be immoral of me to breed from him further. So he's purely a 'pet' snake. I'd like to breed snakes (and monitors and dragons) one day, but if my Houdini (he got his name as a hatchling for his uncanny ability to end up outside his cage ) is still with me when/if that happens, I guess he'll just have to watch others having the fun.

I think up untill a few years ago they were sold as the same snake in QLD pet shops

 

[Kirby]

Dog breeds all started with the one species, over hundreds of years they where bred (by humans)to bring out certain traits. People don't want to wait and line breed to get differant looking animals anymore, they want 1 breeding to create a differant looking animal.

make that thousands + years.

the egyptians had long thin and tall dogs. they even made one of their dogs resemble this animal. ibizan and pharoh hound.

asia created the push face, very common in small dogs, pug etc. etc.

and then you have the english lap dogs.

most would have come from your basic 'wild dog' etc. and over many thousands of years been bred for traits of hair longth, style colour, size, energy, personality, looks, facial and body features.. etc. etc.

edgyptianand peruvian cats are being bred with housholds, to creat the leopard look. is this not shamefull?

i dont see much problem in german giants, beign p. vitticeps and p. barbata. it can strengthen, lengthen and build the future animals. this trait is ery much saught after overseas. would this not be shamed here?

diamonds and coastals can look nice, although i wouldnt want one.

snakes will and can travel in search of food, birds can fly them off to other places, some perhaps kilometers at a time. and who's to say a gravid diamond wont land in amoungst a coastal regeon.

the biggest problem is trust and correct labeling or specimens. who' sto say it is, isnt hybrid..

 

[Sdaji]

As Slateman stated dont knock the newbies, we all were there once & this is how people learn, this is a never ending discussion & it is a healthy one.

I will never knock someone simply because they are a newbie, or they have limited knowledge, but people don't learn by trying to convince others of their beliefs. What I find amusing and perhaps a little frustrating is uninformed people trying to inform others. You learn by listening to others who are experts in their field, not making stuff up and trying to convince people of whatever random thing you happened to come up with. As with everyone else, I started out with no knowledge of genetics. I didn't learn about genetics by trying to convince similarly inexperienced people of my randomly constructed beliefs, I read books, scientific journals, and studied at university for several years. If I tell others of my opinions on the subject, it is because I have learned something worth talking about. Where I don't know I will either shut up and listen to those who do, or I will ask questions. There are plenty of times when I find myself in that situation. If I had gone to my genetics lectures and tried to shout the lecturer down with nonsense, claiming that my ideas about genetics were as valid as his, and the other students did the same, none of us would have learned anything. If people stayed quiet unless they had solid, reliable information to share, we could all easily learn without sorting through misinformation which we couldn't distinguish from the good stuff.

If we must accept untruths in order to avoid 'knocking newbies', well, goodness help us! I accepting untruths and misinformation is the way the reptile world goes about informing itself, well, goodness help the state of captive reptiles!

Okay, now that you all think I'm the most arrogant person you've ever read a post from, I'll leave you to it

 

[cockney red]

As always priceless. But very true. It would however have foreshortened a very entertaining thread.

I will never knock someone simply because they are a newbie, or they have limited knowledge, but people don't learn by trying to convince others of their beliefs. What I find amusing and perhaps a little frustrating is uninformed people trying to inform others. You learn by listening to others who are experts in their field, not making stuff up and trying to convince people of whatever random thing you happened to come up with. As with everyone else, I started out with no knowledge of genetics. I didn't learn about genetics by trying to convince similarly inexperienced people of my randomly constructed beliefs, I read books, scientific journals, and studied at university for several years. If I tell others of my opinions on the subject, it is because I have learned something worth talking about. Where I don't know I will either shut up and listen to those who do, or I will ask questions. There are plenty of times when I find myself in that situation. If I had gone to my genetics lectures and tried to shout the lecturer down with nonsense, claiming that my ideas about genetics were as valid as his, and the other students did the same, none of us would have learned anything. If people stayed quiet unless they had solid, reliable information to share, we could all easily learn without sorting through misinformation which we couldn't distinguish from the good stuff.

If we must accept untruths in order to avoid 'knocking newbies', well, goodness help us! I accepting untruths and misinformation is the way the reptile world goes about informing itself, well, goodness help the state of captive reptiles!

Okay, now that you all think I'm the most arrogant person you've ever read a post from, I'll leave you to it

 

[OzExcalibur]

I just want a venomous MD

 

[peterjohnson64]

From what I understand, in Australia we have the following types of Carpet Pythons: Diamonds, Coastals, Jungles, Murray Darlings, Darwins, Bredli and Imbricata. All of these animals can interbreed and produce fertiel offspring. Even the people in the states are saying that their animals are whatever percentage diamond and whatever percentage coastal etc. This all requires someone to knwo what the parents are to make that claim.

Do you like having all these different types of Carpet Pythons? I do. And I want to keep it that way.

If we continue to interbreed the differnt types then you can see a time in the future when, in captivity, there will only be "Carpet Pythons" that look differently. Is that what people want? I certainly don't.

As opposed to the States, we dont have a limited gene pool of each individual sub species in Australia. If we want to continue to keep having these different sub species then the ONLY way to do that is to stop hybridising.

So sure, if you want to develop snakes that you can merely advertise as a snake then go for it. If, however, you want to keep Australia's native animals as they are (and, by the way, how nature made them through natural selection) then please stop crossing the sub species.

 

[cockney red]

Peter, you are a man of great wisdom, and i wish to be the bearer of your babies.:lol:

From what I understand, in Australia we have the following types of Carpet Pythons: Diamonds, Coastals, Jungles, Murray Darlings, Darwins, Bredli and Imbricata. All of these animals can interbreed and produce fertiel offspring. Even the people in the states are saying that their animals are whatever percentage diamond and whatever percentage coastal etc. This all requires someone to knwo what the parents are to make that claim.

Do you like having all these different types of Carpet Pythons? I do. And I want to keep it that way.

If we continue to interbreed the differnt types then you can see a time in the future when, in captivity, there will only be "Carpet Pythons" that look differently. Is that what people want? I certainly don't.

As opposed to the States, we dont have a limited gene pool of each individual sub species in Australia. If we want to continue to keep having these different sub species then the ONLY way to do that is to stop hybridising.

So sure, if you want to develop snakes that you can merely advertise as a snake then go for it. If, however, you want to keep Australia's native animals as they are (and, by the way, how nature made them through natural selection) then please stop crossing the sub species.

 

[Stevo]

Peter, you are a man of great wisdom, and i wish to be the bearer of your babies.:lol:

What a twister!!!!

 

[BROWNS]

Peter, you are a man of great wisdom, and i wish to be the bearer of your babies.:lol:

Sick puppy!!!!