Will you be Crossing your subspecies??

[mrsshep77]

Well seeing that currently over 75% are against breeding them it seems cut and dry to me.

But according to previous remarks, you can't keep a hybrid with the intention of NOT breeding it and still be apart of the majority! It takes more ethics to do that then be honest and open about breeding hybrids!

The poll has a number of options and there is only ONE that says "No, I would never ever do it, keep things pure IMO" and it's currently at 57% now if you felt so passionate about BREEDING hybrids then to be in line with your thoughts and opinions about the topic, wouldnt "owning" a hybrid be just as bad?

I'm just trying to see if the whole topic at hand has been lost? Are we debating the "breeding" of hybrids OR the "keeping" of hybrids? It has to be one or the other, otherwise that's just hypocracy.

 

[Sdaji]

Well seeing that currently over 75% are against breeding them it seems cut and dry to me.

How is it cut and dry? There are over 20 people saying they plan to create them and over 60 people saying they're open to the idea. That means there are hundreds of people out there who feel this way, not to mention several times that who don't understand or care about the situation, not to mention the accidents which will come from people who themselves don't like hybrids. There will always be hybrids galore. The fact that more people dislike them than like them won't stop the others from creating them.

Most of the pure stuff going around isn't pure anyway, it's just snake soup with a false label. Being so anti-hybrid just means that hybrids (which are going to be everywhere whether we like it or not) will be misrepresented. The result of this is that things which actually are pure don't look so special because everything supposedly is.

The reality of hybrids being everywhere should be acknowledged. By trying to get rid of something we can't, we're just going to cause problems, we're just going to force people to be dishonest, which makes the problem worse.

(Yes, a lot of this is said in general, not directed at junglepython2)

 

[mrsshep77]

I totally agree with you Sdaji, regardless of how people personally feel about hybrids by being so ANTI towards it is just going to make the ones who are for it be dishonest and then where does that leave the Pure Gene Pool we're all talking about? VERY MUDDY!

It's great that people have their opinions and feelings about this and can voice them BUT at the end of the day you aren't going to stop someone doing something just because YOU don't believe in it - look at Prohibition in the early 1900's it just made people do it illegally.

I would rather have someone be honest with me about a snake's parentage than for them to lie to me! This doesn't mean I'm condoning the practice or I agree BUT I can realise that these things are always going to be happening wether I like it or not so why not just "accept" that you can't change people's thoughts.

 

[ad]

Sdaji and Mrs Shep , you are saying we are 'forcing' dishonest people to be even more dishonest?
It is illegal in most states - so aren't hybrid breeders already people that are a bit dodgy?

Yes it will keep happening for the reasons mentioned, as a hobby we should try to minimize it and educate people to the pitfalls associated. They will catch the young, gullible and greedy, as they do today -wiser ones will seek reputable breeders with proven lines.

 

[caustichumor]

That reasoning isn't going to change any purists ideology though IMO, People will always be on both sides of the fence on this issue, and I can't see anyone taking a relaxed attitude towards something (in the hope that it doesn't get any worse.) At the very least some new keepers will see the division this topic causes amongst keepers and maybe convince some that just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.....

 

[mrsshep77]

That's right Ad BUT I'd like to think that as a "hobby" we'd at least be able to be honest with the ones who share that same passion with.

Ok so lets educate people, not argue with the one's who are already open about their practice! I think the other thing to remember to is that this started over a photo posted by an Overseas member who doesn't have the same laws imposed on them as we do. Now shouldn't he be able to post his photo's the same as we post our pure snakes and we all give him the respect that his country, his laws are different and he shouldn't be condemned for what his governing body has imposed upon him?

Fair enough you may not agree or like what he is doing but for people to resort to immature insults and ridicule because he posted the photo is defeating the purpose of what the real issue is.

He is overseas, therefore his gene pool and hybridizing does not affect us in a physical sense! So what are all arguing for? Why not start educating people on the laws that govern OUR country not worry about someone else's laws.

There are 2 ways to start a war.... Politics AND Religion! And nobody can win in a war!

 

[Sdaji]

Sdaji and Mrs Shep , you are saying we are 'forcing' dishonest people to be even more dishonest?
It is illegal in most states - so aren't hybrid breeders already people that are a bit dodgy?

Yes it will keep happening for the reasons mentioned, as a hobby we should try to minimize it and educate people to the pitfalls associated. They will catch the young, gullible and greedy, as they do today -wiser ones will seek reputable breeders with proven lines.

If we could magically stop people from breeding hybrids it would be great. Unfortunately, that's not an option. If we make it illegal or socially unacceptable, the hybrids get labelled as pure animals and are mixed with the genuinely pure ones. Yes, we are forcing people to be dishonest. In the cases where it is illegal, yes, hybridisers are already a bit dodgy. If you care about pure animals, it's best to allow people to openly tell you that their hybrids are hybrids, rather than get them mixed up with the pure stuff (which in most cases isn't pure anyway).

In the end, it's all rather trivial as if you know what you're doing and you want something pure, you'll track it down (and not by simply looking for an ad that says the snake is pure - that doesn't work!). It's already years or in some cases decades too late to save the purity of many lines, so it's a fairly moot point, but if you care about pure animals, you have to give people the option of telling you that their animals what are not pure are not pure, otherwise everyone makes the same claim as those with the genuine article.

 

[mrsshep77]

The affect of this dishonesty and confusion is probably best seen in diamonds! How many times have we seen people question the parentage of a diamond and I'm the first to admit I've made calls on snakes that may or may not have been right... why... because that element of doubt is there isn't it?

If people could just come out and say "YES it's a hybrid" or it's possibly a hybrid far outweighs the possibilities if more hybrid breeders are forced to embelish their lineage!

 

[ad]

Mrs Shep, It is the fact that people want to make more money from their hybrid by claiming it as pure - Not fear of purists.
People advertise hybrids openly atm - how do you percieve this?

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Can someone explain to me how these hybrid breeders would make money please??? This gets mentioned all the time? How is a hybrid ever going to demand the same price as a so called pure line??? Especially when they get sold as such. I am so glad I am in Victoria where a carpet python is just a carpet python. At least there have been some that said they would sell them for what they are, even though they were dodgy.

 

[cockney red]

As illegal.

Mrs Shep, It is the fact that people want to make more money from their hybrid by claiming it as pure - Not fear of purists.
People advertise hybrids openly atm - how do you percieve this?

 

[mrsshep77]

I believe money motivates alot of people for alot of reasons! But surely we wouldn't be having this debate if a snakes blood line was 100% known 100% of the time??? It's not possible as unless you're the person who went into the bush and caught that snake with you're own hands you can't possibly guarentee it's pure. All that you have is the breeders honesty or even just the knowledge of where his animals come from!

I do believe there are a majority of breeders who are honest about the snakes they sell, however there will always be a bad egg amongst people won't there!

Ok so let me ask you this Ad (and I mean no offence or malice but it's hard to get emotion across a screen), now I'm speaking hypothetical and my views only BUT what happens to the market that WANT these "designer" snakes (and there will ALWAYS be a market for it) if breeders are openly and constently rediculed and abused over what they do in their own backyard? Lets say in 5-10yrs time? What can you see happening? It won't stop no matter how hard people push, it will only make people seek other avenues ie black market etc

Now I'm not saying we should embrace what other breeders do nor like it at all BUT my opinion is... why fight a battle that can never be won? Hybrids will never go away nor will the breeders who breed them, nor will the market who seek to purchase them! Why not focus on education??? Don't they say that Education is the most powerful tool?

 

[slacker]

Have a look at some of the hybrids overseas. You might not like them, but I can guarantee that many people will. Aesthetically speaking, some--not all, but some--of those hybrids are absolutely stunning when compared to typical wild-type animals of 'pure' origins. Sure, that's subjective, but whatever.

If someone over here was producing hybrids jags with the aesthetic quality of those you see overseas, I seriously doubt they're going to get less money than they would for a plain old coastal.

 

[Sdaji]

Can someone explain to me how these hybrid breeders would make money please???

How is a hybrid ever going to demand the same price as a so called pure line???

By having a pure label.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

My point exactly. Its all about the appeal. Even the Anti hybrid brigade look at jags and I cant help but think what they think. It will happen, Jags will pop up sooner or later. In whatever crossed form or even just coastal Jags. This will of course hurt the market for the purist brigade, but what can they do about it. I can not imagine anybody not wanting to own a jag. Especially with all the possibilities there are when combining different colours, patterns and traits. Scare tactics is all that can be used to bully people into seeing eye to eye with them. I agree with Sdaji and Mrsshep, it will happen if they like it or not.

 

[Hsut77]

By having a pure label.

So people will breed Hybrids so they can sell them as pure????...........or do you mean sell the one's that don't look like Hybrids as pure. And keep breeding Hybrids in the hope something 'Good Looking' will come out?

 

[Sdaji]

Have a look at some of the hybrids overseas. You might not like them, but I can guarantee that many people will. Aesthetically speaking, some--not all, but some--of those hybrids are absolutely stunning when compared to typical wild-type animals of 'pure' origins. Sure, that's subjective, but whatever.

If someone over here was producing hybrids jags with the aesthetic quality of those you see overseas, I seriously doubt they're going to get less money than they would for a plain old coastal.

Which hybrids look good? Other than Carpondoes (which usually look crap as adults anyway) and Jaguars (which only look good because they're Jaguars, not because they're hybrids, just like a hybrid albino Carpet would look good, but only because it's an albino, not because it's a hybrid - it's the trait, it has nothing to do with the fact that they've been hybridised), which ones do people like?

 

[cockney red]

None of em. They all look like 1950's curtains to me.

Which hybrids look good? Other than Carpondoes (which usually look crap as adults anyway) and Jaguars (which only look good because they're Jaguars, not because they're hybrids, just like a hybrid albino Carpet would look good, but only because it's an albino, not because it's a hybrid - it's the trait, it has nothing to do with the fact that they've been hybridised), which ones do people like?

 

[caustichumor]

It's Human Nature, look at the U.S. hobby, they have access to an almost unlimited number of international reptiles, you can have a green anaconda if you want to! Yet there are still plenty of U.S breeders that cross the hell out of anything they can get their hands on. Now Australia has a relatively "small"amount of python species available to keepers, there will always be a section that wants something differant.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

All the percentage jags look good. But they had to cross coastals with all the other known sub species to get the jaguar trait into the hybrid. Then its just a matter of crossing the hybrid back to each other generation after generation, so you get the hybrids to look more and more like one of the parents. They will never quite be one or the other specie, but who cares when they look that awesome. You also have the problem of the nasty looking siblings. This is where the screw up is going to happen. What will you do with the ugly siblings????