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Ok.... I like Jags, so what? My next carpet is going to be a bredli, than a plan on getting a pair of Jungles, than I plan on getting a Granite IJ. I like all carpets, I don't care if they are the wild type or a morph. If it makes you feel better, my first carpet ever was an IJ. I plan on having around 20 carpet pythons one day. Some will be morphs and some will be normals. Everyone has their own taste in snakes. Just like some people like making ugly hybrids. Would I ever buy a Ball x retic hybrid or a ball x carpet hybrid... NO, but some do.
 
The debate drifted from colours to naturals v others, I guess it's inevitable, that's where most of the differences are. There is also noticeable emphasis on Morelia, i.e. carpets. Lets hear from the Liasis keepers, surely, they didn't choose those species for colours. What about the many species of elapids in collections - what takes your fancy - colour, behaviour, fascination with deadliness? If I may use the term "serious keepers" as opposed to pet owners - the ven keepers must be the ones. Is it likely that we are going to see Jag-adders or such? Oh, of course, there are scaleless adders already.
I am not picking on any particular group, just extending the debate away from carpets.
 
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Ok.... I like Jags, so what? My next carpet is going to be a bredli, than a plan on getting a pair of Jungles, than I plan on getting a Granite IJ. I like all carpets, I don't care if they are the wild type or a morph. If it makes you feel better, my first carpet ever was an IJ. I plan on having around 20 carpet pythons one day. Some will be morphs and some will be normals. Everyone has their own taste in snakes. Just like some people like making ugly hybrids. Would I ever buy a Ball x retic hybrid or a ball x carpet hybrid... NO, but some do.

I am not criticizing your choice of snakes. I myself have nothing against JAG's, morphs or hybrids :)
 
I am not criticizing your choice of snakes. I myself have nothing against JAG's, morphs or hybrids :)

Thank you. The only snakes that I do not agree with, is hybrids. That is it. I do not think hybrids should be created under any circumstance.
 
Ok.... I like Jags, so what? My next carpet is going to be a bredli, than a plan on getting a pair of Jungles, than I plan on getting a Granite IJ. I like all carpets, I don't care if they are the wild type or a morph. If it makes you feel better, my first carpet ever was an IJ. I plan on having around 20 carpet pythons one day. Some will be morphs and some will be normals. Everyone has their own taste in snakes. Just like some people like making ugly hybrids. Would I ever buy a Ball x retic hybrid or a ball x carpet hybrid... NO, but some do.

People cross balls with retics??? That's crazy.
 
The debate drifted from colours to natulars v others, I guess it's inevitable, that's where most of the differences are. There is also noticeable emphasis on Morelia, i.e. carpets. Lets hear from the Liasis keepers, surely, they didn't choose those species for colours. What about the many species of elapids in collections - what takes your fancy - colour, behaviour, fascination with deadliness? If I may use the term "serious keepers" as opposed to pet owners - the ven keepers must be the ones. Is it likely that we are going to see Jag-adders or such?
I am not picking on any particular group, just extending the debate away from carpets.

Antaresia - I have Platinum Mac and Wheatbelt stimmies. BOTH IMO the prettiest of the antaresia group.

Vens - I chose Northern Death Adders, mine are beautiful colours, oranges and beige. I have also got an Albino Death adder.

My view is - I love pretty things, i like pretty colours and patterns. But i do have an interest in the ecology and natural history. Not to the extent of other keepers but is still an interest.

In Feb i went on 2 herping trips, one to Gosford, NSW and the other to Darwin. Both of these were for the sole purpose of herping. I love it. Getting dirty, rummaging around in the bush, capturing and photographing snakes.

I chose my animals not just due to colour, i like the species. But i would never own a normal carpet, a normal coloured childreni etc etc (all dull and boring in my eyes). I like the genus, and then choose the species and individuals for colour and pattern.

P.S - when i can afford them i will get albino Macs, piebald childreni, scaleless adders etc etc. I appreciate the species for what they are.... BUT I WANT THE PRETTIEST ONES! lol
 
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Yes over here in the states, people have crossed balls with retics, burms, carpets, angolans, bloods, and I think that is it so far. I don't know why but whatever.

There can only be one mission in this madness - "I have done it, now I am a lesser God"
 
There can only be one mission in this madness - "I have done it, now I am a lesser God"

Yes. I think you are right. I believe that is why people do it. They think they are God but they aren't. I think they do it for the money as well.
I seen one ad for a carpall. He took a ball python bred it to a IJ carpet and was charging $2,000 a piece.
 
But you must remember that some retics are called dwarfs for a reason
Not all sub species are the giants we imagine them all to be in Aus so it would be possible

Although I still disagree with that practice
 
Nick, what an effort, wouldn't your time be better spend writing field herping articles for Scales & Tails?

If astounds me how quickly some people declare that "this will not work" or "how can it be policed" without knowing the first and last thing about the proposed project. How can you criticize something that doesn't even exist yet? The mind boggles!

Please use your boggling mind and explain how it will work in detail Michael. You have been mentioning this idea ever since you joined the forum back when your name was 'Craftsman'. This was at least 3 years ago now so why have you not taken it further and got something off the ground? I understand that setting something up like this would take time but I assumed that if it was going to be implemented, it would taken off by now.

" The problem is, once these snakes blend into someone's collection and are paired up with other, locale unknown specimens, that's the end of the pure line.


So basically, after the 'certified' animal leaves the sellers collection, future buyers only have their 'word' that they are from the certified 'pure' stock? If you will not be using pit tagging, micro chipping or using DNA to prove the animal in mention, than how the hell are you going to prove the animal is what it is????????????????????

A photograph will not suffice for a few reasons I can think of off the top of my head.

1) People have enough trouble posting clear photos for animals for sale as it is.

2) Animals like your Chondros, pattern less Childreni, Olives, Water Pythons, Adders PLUS nearly every other standard, non morph snake in Australia. MOST of the snakes show that little difference in photographs, they simply could not be used for I.Ding an animal.

So basically, all you can do is take the sellers word for what they are selling which is how it works now.

If it could work, I would be happy to support the idea but after hearing about it for three years from a few different people, can someone please explain IN DETAIL how it will be 100% guaranteed to work and the animals in mention can never be questioned. I genuinely want to know how you mob are going to achieve this?

Another problem I can see is that sellers who already have animals in their collections that they want to add as pure stock on the register (like your Green Pythons), how would they do it? The only animals that could be used if this was to be taken serious would be animals from licensed takers like Dave Mackintosh, Garry Davies and David Reed.

For other species that are not allowed to be taken from the wild legally, all that is to be relied on is the seller’s word, much like it is today.



Once again, I must stress that if this ever gets off the ground and accepted by the majority of Australian herps, than I will eat my words and apologise to anyone who thinks that I am being an unrealistic downer. I can see a few people thinking it is a good idea however unless I am missing the method of proof that is easy, fool proof and 100% guaranteed, I doubt it will be widely recognised.


 
Nick, you're completely on the wrong path. This "certification" .. whatever has nothing to do with what I proposed 5 years ago re- GTP. I am not involved in this register, I know no more about that than you do .... which is not enough to form an opinion, not to mention a critique.
Didn't I say in this thread that this proposed register is happening in Victoria? You know where I am. Wow!

Maybe you should start a new thread titled "Nothing will ever work" - this thread is about something else.
 
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No worries, I was confused. I assumed that because you are such a strong believer in the idea, that you would been involved in this current proposal.

Why did the GTP proposal you tried 5 years ago never take off?

If you know no more than I do, and it is not enough to form an opinion, than why have you expressed such strong thoughts in the thread already?

Everyone is entitled to form their opinions when ever they feel fit to. It makes me laugh when you try and form opinions for others like you do so often. This forum is for the general public to state what ever THEY feel on an idea. As long as it does not breach any of the site rules, members can form opinions on things when ever they like, not when you feel there is enough evidence for someone to make an opinion. Are you the APS opinion moderator :)

So if you have nothing to say in regards to the Victorian 'breeders register' than perhaps the various questions I asked in my above post could be answered by one of the Victorian keepers working with the register. Perhaps they may be able to help me revise my opinions on the idea????????????????
 
Nick, I am going to simply leave this dialog. You can wonder why as much as you like, others will know. If you want to attack me on a personal level - knock on my door.
 
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As you said, lets not jump the gut, no one has got any information so far to form an opinion.
Microchipping is DEFINITELY not on! Subcutaneous pit tagging is useless, the tag can be easily removed, that's apart from the aesthetics, and internal microchipping requires surgery under LA - who would pay for it?

I was actually jumping around in my head LOL!.....in regards to microchipping, as I see it as the only real form of certification in the broader sense, as in, animals must be microchipped to leave or enter the country - unless they are going out to Indonesia, or South Africa (off the top of my head)....and in my experience it is as easy as Number=Animal.
So in this "theme" of things, I would regard microchipping as the end result of an established set of definitive protocols to certify a snake as being bona fide.

LA stings like a bitch.....if I was a breeder at your level - it would be my prerogative to ask for a GA for any snake of mine to be done, as IMO a quick GA would and should, be part of the certification protocol.

It's common practice for us to remove the microchip from a zoo-owned snake that has passed away when it is autopsied, and for the vet to write a report on that particular animal - and part of that report is to certify that the snake as described matches the microchip.
Quite an interesting process.
So if you follow my thoughts - this takes the initial breeder certification process to another level.

The trouble with putting out such a banquet in front of me with regard to an actual register, careful and true documentation, DNA testing, microchipping (?) and breeder certification is that in real terms......I've already jumped the gun. :)

And on another note - what you are doing by fleshing things out with regard to your original question, is both eccentric, and highly intelligent. I just hope that I don't get too fatigued by the end result.



Please use your boggling mind and explain how it will work in detail Michael. You have been mentioning this idea ever since you joined the forum back when your name was 'Craftsman'. This was at least 3 years ago now so why have you not taken it further and got something off the ground? I understand that setting something up like this would take time but I assumed that if it was going to be implemented, it would taken off by now.



So basically, after the 'certified' animal leaves the sellers collection, future buyers only have their 'word' that they are from the certified 'pure' stock? If you will not be using pit tagging, micro chipping or using DNA to prove the animal in mention, than how the hell are you going to prove the animal is what it is????????????????????

A photograph will not suffice for a few reasons I can think of off the top of my head.

1) People have enough trouble posting clear photos for animals for sale as it is.

2) Animals like your Chondros, pattern less Childreni, Olives, Water Pythons, Adders PLUS nearly every other standard, non morph snake in Australia. MOST of the snakes show that little difference in photographs, they simply could not be used for I.Ding an animal.

So basically, all you can do is take the sellers word for what they are selling which is how it works now.

If it could work, I would be happy to support the idea but after hearing about it for three years from a few different people, can someone please explain IN DETAIL how it will be 100% guaranteed to work and the animals in mention can never be questioned. I genuinely want to know how you mob are going to achieve this?

Another problem I can see is that sellers who already have animals in their collections that they want to add as pure stock on the register (like your Green Pythons), how would they do it? The only animals that could be used if this was to be taken serious would be animals from licensed takers like Dave Mackintosh, Garry Davies and David Reed.

For other species that are not allowed to be taken from the wild legally, all that is to be relied on is the seller’s word, much like it is today.



Once again, I must stress that if this ever gets off the ground and accepted by the majority of Australian herps, than I will eat my words and apologise to anyone who thinks that I am being an unrealistic downer. I can see a few people thinking it is a good idea however unless I am missing the method of proof that is easy, fool proof and 100% guaranteed, I doubt it will be widely recognised.



VERY good fodder for setting up a system that should have NO loopholes.
And you should be turning your energy into something more than suggesting that only wild-caught animals are bona fide, as this process in and of itself is open to debate when you consider the can of worms that would open up should any Tom, Dick or Harry be able to collect other than the well-known people you mentioned??
And I totally agree with you as to photographic evidence - it should only be used as a last resort - which is why it would be good to have plenty of alternatives. Have you any?? :)

Now heres a thought
If we cross a jag with a merino we can get a wooly snake with ears whose shed skin is worth good money
Simply use ear tags then
problem solved

Just go right out there......and lets talk about the NLIS ear tag system that was introduced for the sale and breeding of cattle here in Australia. The system is totally able to be worked around.
Did you know that a purebred Angus cow can have a calf that resembles a Brangus?? True !!
As long as the paperwork is filled out correctly by the farmer (breeder) that calf will be around the same dressed weight,exhibit the same carcass composition, fibre characteristics and metabolic enzyme activities as a pure bred Angus.

So, your suggestion about crossing jags with merinos wouldn't work, as ear tags have proven themselves to be only as good as the ears they are hanging from, and some of the progeny might not have ears. :)

There's my thought.
Other than being someone who has been around in herps for a long time, and having daily access to more freaky out-crosses than us, where do you see loopholes cropping up, or being taken advantage of if a (purely voluntary I'm thinking atm) system was put in place here?
Do you think - as I am starting to, that the real value in snakes will be their certifiable heritage?
 
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Then we have the official report from the 'Inventor' of Jags in Norway
This report was not made until a long time after jags had arrived in the USA and more crossing had been done
But he totally denies that his original jags had anything strange in them
He states that his were a mcdoweli and an Australian coastal and appears to be able to back that up
My main thought about this pairing is that why havnt we seen a similar result from the same pairings done over here

That is why I still question the actual pairing that made these beautiful but quite troubled reptiles
Lots of initial reports included various South American species and the Irian Jayas were not reported as being included until 1998 as far as I can find out now through google
That in itself is interesting because I can find no references to Neurological problems before 2003
So maybe the original jags were fine???
But if the original Jags were from purely Australian stock and were fine; why are Australian Bred Jags showing problems already??

Or is that one of those questions that should never be asked??
 
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As far as tagging.....What about a blue light ink tattoo in the cloaca scale, just putting it out there, don't bag me for it.:) (slightly off topic I know)
 
I have read that the original jags came from a clutch of normal looking Coastals. I don't know what started the whole Neurological issues in jags, but I don't see why it would be caused from IJ? I don't know of any IJ that display neuro issues. I still think that all jags have the neuro gene in them but it is dormant and only when the jag is stressed out from certain factors they become neuro. What do you guys think about that? I think the same neuro gene is responsible for killing Leucistic carpets when they are born. Just my thoughts.
 
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