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I don't see how it would work or be policed?

You are correct Jay, it will not work. All it will do is allow buyers to purchase animals from a few designated 'pure sellers' and get a piece of paper stating it. I don't want to put anyone down as if they have time to burn, why not set it up however, any keeper that has been around the traps for more than 10 minutes already knows which breeders have pure species ect.

What are they trying to achieve? A piece of paper stating that the purchased offspring comes from a Pure Antaresia stimsoni x Antaresia stimsoni pairing???????????

It is pointless IMO and it would not be worth the paper it is written on unless they were from wild caught stock from the exact same locales. I would not bother to breed a Broome locale A. stimsoni with a Georgetown locale A. stimsoni. The two animals look nothing alike, come from extremely different environments and are different sizes.

A registry will never change my mind when it comes to pure reptiles as too many people have no idea about the natural environments and habits of the animals that they are saying.

I do not like hybrids, I actually despise them however I will defend hybrid keepers in this post as IMO breeding an Antaresia from 4000kms apart, regardless if they are the same species, is no better than breeding a Palmerston Jungle with a Proserpine Carpet.

The entire Morelia and Antaresia genuses are so mixed up in natural occurring WILD animals, I think that the only way an animal can be deemed pure should be from animals from the same immediate area.

With the current state of many Australian species were the taxonomists can't even agree, surely, locale specific animals are the only animals that should be deemed pure.

Whilst I am having a whinge, animals could at best be called pure if they are from the same region i.e, Sandfire Stimsoni bred with a Port Hedland Stimsoni = Pure Pilbara Stimsoni.

I think that breeding M.s. cheynei from Milla Milla with a M.s. cheynei from Upper Daragee still equals a pure Palmerston M.s. cheynei even though they are not both from Milla Milla ect however IMO breeding a BHP from Sandfire (black and white, less than 6 feet as adults) with a Quamby BHP (dirty, big & brown 10 foot long) is worth as much to a region / locale specific pure keeper as a Diamond x Jungle.

All they are is a captive creation, made by man in unnatural environments, for the pet industry. Most people would not say two words about the BHP offspring even though the two adult BHP that created the hatchlings have as much in common as the Diamond x Jungle cross, whilst many people would make snide remarks about the Morelia cross.

What does my entire whinge of a post have in relation to the colour topic of this thread???????

Everything.

Unless it is a hard to get species, we would all like the best example of the snake as we can. Why would you want a man made turd coloured snake like a Honey Jungle (biggest joke of a name ever) when we could have a vivid black and fluro yellow example like Nev posted?????????????? If they both were identical in size, temperament and housing requirements, who would want to turd coloured Honey Jungle? Not me!

As captive reptile keepers, all we can try and do is representing the animals in as best as we can to their natural environments. The animals we keep will never be released back into the wild however sensible keepers (not serious keepers Krefft, as I agree, there are plenty of serious hybrid keepers ) should be worried if their Jaguars escaped into the wild and mated with a wild Morelia.

I am over the Jag and hybrid debates as the snakes are here to stay. If a Rough Scaled Python escaped in Brisbane, it it bred with a locale carpet, it is still a hybrid (and probable a dog ugly one at that)!

If a Jaguar escaped in the wild and mated with a female Morelia from the same area (nice looking hatchlings), it is still no more of a hybrid that the RSP cross however it is of much greater risk to the eco system and immediate habitat as within 10 years there could be hundreds of neuro ridden pythons which could lead to disaster.

At the end of the day, I think that the Australian reptile scene has taken a turn for the worse. The hobby is full of morons who have no idea about the snakes they are keeping in boxes, no idea and no interest in field herping compared to previous generations of keepers and full of people breeding hundreds of unwanted snakes each year.

I liked the fact that 20 years ago you could buy a Jungle for $100 and there were less than 10 keepers breeding them regularly. All animals found homes each season and people looked forward to putting their names on a waiting list each year to get animals and keepers swapped and exchanged herps that interested them. Breeding snakes was a challenge as there was bugger all information on the captive breeding of many species.

I would like to go back in time and rewind SOME aspects of herping however many things have improved in the 21st century I guess.........................

 
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please elaborate, what else to most keepers or potential keepers matters? not the hardcore keepers.

other than health

I wasn't speaking for most keepers I was speaking for all of us and in response to your statement that you feel there is nothing left after handling and colour.
Species is the most important thing to consider and why you want to keep a particular species, despite what it looks like it's still the same species and holds the same interest for me as far as it's natural history, habits-behaviours, habitat preferances,diet, reproduction,etc.

Actually I guess your right there is nothing left after handling and colour, simply because they're the only two things left after everything else is considered.

P.s. What do you consider a hardcore keeper?
 
Nick, what an effort, wouldn't your time be better spend writing field herping articles for Scales & Tails?

If astounds me how quickly some people declare that "this will not work" or "how can it be policed" without knowing the first and last thing about the proposed project. How can you criticize something that doesn't even exist yet? The mind boggles!
 
locality, line of descendants, the looks of the parents, genetic vigour, robustness, female's breeding history, clutch size, ration of fertile eggs v slugs, breeder's records and reputation, ......
It sometimes astounds me that people wanting to buy a snake from me don't bother to ask for such basic and important information.
If there was a "RSPCA for snakes" may as well go there and grab looks good.

I'm with you there Michael! I would like to ask these questions of people I buy snakes from, but am very wary of being labelled a tyre kicker. There is less of an imperative when you are buying cheaper snakes, not that there really should be, but I still think these are important factors.
 
I liked the fact that 20 years ago you could buy a Jungle for $100 and there were less than 10 keepers breeding them regularly...

Apart from the nostalgia stuff, I just wanted to say congrats man, I didn't think you looked old enough to be in the game 40 years ago! Unless I'm thinking of someone else :S
 
"It is pointless IMO and it would not be worth the paper it is written on unless they were from wild caught stock from the exact same locales."

This is a sweeping statement.
Certain species with limited and isolated distribution can be granted a "locale specific" status. For example, Rough-scaled pythons, Aussie GTPs, Broad-headed snakes, Chappell Island tiger snakes, Nactus galgajuga (Black Mt. gecko) and the skink, just to name a few - they couldn't have come from any other place but a very specific place that limits their distribution.
Any wild caught specimens supplied (and certified) by the WA licenced collectors can and should be registered as pure, locality specific snakes. The problem is, once these snakes blend into someone's collection and are paired up with other, locale unknown specimens, that's the end of the pure line.
 
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This breeders database is a really great idea in most ways
If a demerit/merit system is introduced with it that would quickly weed out those who did not treat it seriously
For now in Australia things are still pretty well defined into localities and most species can be identified with their original area
Do a google search on various Aussie species being sold overseas as locality specific and you will wonder what you are looking at
Or look up 'Pure Biak for sale' and try to guess at the actual heritage

While the craze right now is morphs and hybrids in the future there will be growing demand for 'pure' lines because mixed and matched reptiles will eventually go out of fashion
At that time any breeder who has proven locality specific animals will be in the winners circle

Just two other quick questions
Have there been any signs of neurological problems within Australia from Australian bred Jags??
Were there any signs of problems in the original line of Jags or did they start after the Irian Jaya Carpets were introduced?
 
WOW.......
This is the best topic to come up in a long time.

Without knowing the details of a proposed "breeder" certification (if that is what it is?)......not much to add,
except that in order to certify I imagine microchipping would be part of the process along with visual and dna testing?
 
Have there been any signs of neurological problems within Australia from Australian bred Jags??

Yes there have been neuro issues with jags in Australia anyone who claims otherwise must have $$$ invested in them. The good thing is that a few sellers are acknowledging this and have warnings of possible issues on their websites etc..

Ben
 
If astounds me how quickly some people declare that "this will not work" or "how can it be policed" without knowing the first and last thing about the proposed project. How can you criticize something that doesn't even exist yet? The mind boggles!

I wasn't criticizing or saying it will not work. I asked how it would work and how it would be policed.
 
If astounds me how quickly some people declare that "this will not work" or "how can it be policed" without knowing the first and last thing about the proposed project. How can you criticize something that doesn't even exist yet? The mind boggles!

You don't see, you doubt, you wonder - it's a statement Jay. However ......

My question was just that... a QUESTION about how this will work. How is that a criticism????

Just because i don't know the first and last thing about it, does this mean i can not ask how it will work???

I didn't know a question out of genuine interest was so unacceptable?
 
I like pythons for their natural beauty.
I feel like this is another example of mankind's cancerous obsession with changing everything about the earth that we live on.

do we really want to live in some human created fantasy land??
 
I put up my post on the Ball python X capet as when i was in America i seen it for the first time and never heard of it before.

I Had heard of a Woma X Ball though.

Just thought people might like to see it, I was not saying i wanted it or promoting it. :)
 
I like pythons for their natural beauty.
I feel like this is another example of mankind's cancerous obsession with changing everything about the earth that we live on.

do we really want to live in some human created fantasy land??

Curious.... What do you consider (quality/looks wise) their natural beauty?
 
Yes there have been neuro issues with jags in Australia anyone who claims otherwise must have $$$ invested in them. The good thing is that a few sellers are acknowledging this and have warnings of possible issues on their websites etc..

Ben

Over here in America, our jags have neuro issues too. I have been talking to a lot of people over here about it, and I think that all jags have the neuro genes but they are dormant and they don't show signs of neurological issues until they are stressed out enough from something like moving, breeding, harsh chemicals.... things like that. That is just what I think it is.
 
Ty Bump I am a bit out of the picture in Aus now

Ok cool ^^^Morelia
Did the first signs of neuro damage in USA come from the supposedly original batch of jags from Sweden
Or did it surface after the irian jayas were introduced into the mix??

Just wondering if mixing in a gene pool from a definitely tropical area with subtropical genes may have something to do with it???

I know little about jags except that they are beautiful but have shown signs of too many problems
[bit like my ex really]
 
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