It's all in the colour

[kupper]

I was actually jumping around in my head LOL!.....in regards to microchipping, as I see it as the only real form of certification in the broader sense, as in, animals must be microchipped to leave or enter the country - unless they are going out to Indonesia, or South Africa (off the top of my head)....and in my experience it is as easy as Number=Animal.
So in this "theme" of things, I would regard microchipping as the end result of an established set of definitive protocols to certify a snake as being bona fide.

LA stings like a bitch.....if I was a breeder at your level - it would be my prerogative to ask for a GA for any snake of mine to be done, as IMO a quick GA would and should, be part of the certification protocol.

It's common practice for us to remove the microchip from a zoo-owned snake that has passed away when it is autopsied, and for the vet to write a report on that particular animal - and part of that report is to certify that the snake as described matches the microchip.
Quite an interesting process.
So if you follow my thoughts - this takes the initial breeder certification process to another level.

The trouble with putting out such a banquet in front of me with regard to an actual register, careful and true documentation, DNA testing, microchipping (?) and breeder certification is that in real terms......I've already jumped the gun.

And on another note - what you are doing by fleshing things out with regard to your original question, is both eccentric, and highly intelligent. I just hope that I don't get too fatigued by the end result.



VERY good fodder for setting up a system that should have NO loopholes.
And you should be turning your energy into something more than suggesting that only wild-caught animals are bona fide, as this process in and of itself is open to debate when you consider the can of worms that would open up should any Tom, Dick or Harry be able to collect other than the well-known people you mentioned??
And I totally agree with you as to photographic evidence - it should only be used as a last resort - which is why it would be good to have plenty of alternatives. Have you any??



Just go right out there......and lets talk about the NLIS ear tag system that was introduced for the sale and breeding of cattle here in Australia. The system is totally able to be worked around.
Did you know that a purebred Angus cow can have a calf that resembles a Brangus?? True !!
As long as the paperwork is filled out correctly by the farmer (breeder) that calf will be around the same dressed weight,exhibit the same carcass composition, fibre characteristics and metabolic enzyme activities as a pure bred Angus.

So, your suggestion about crossing jags with merinos wouldn't work, as ear tags have proven themselves to be only as good as the ears they are hanging from, and some of the progeny might not have ears.

There's my thought.
Other than being someone who has been around in herps for a long time, and having daily access to more freaky out-crosses than us, where do you see loopholes cropping up, or being taken advantage of if a (purely voluntary I'm thinking atm) system was put in place here?
Do you think - as I am starting to, that the real value in snakes will be their certifiable heritage?

all makes sense and valid argument , although it hurt my head considerably to read it and comprehend :lol:

thanks for a well thought out post

 

[viridis]

LA stings like a bitch.....if I was a breeder at your level - it would be my prerogative to ask for a GA for any snake of mine to be done, as IMO a quick GA would and should, be part of the certification protocol.

Do you think - as I am starting to, that the real value in snakes will be their certifiable heritage?

VERY good fodder for setting up a system that should have NO loopholes.
And you should be turning your energy into something more than suggesting that only wild-caught animals are bona fide, as this process in and of itself is open to debate when you consider the can of worms that would open up should any Tom, Dick or Harry be able to collect other than the well-known people you mentioned??
And I totally agree with you as to photographic evidence - it should only be used as a last resort - which is why it would be good to have plenty of alternatives. Have you any??



Do you think - as I am starting to, that the real value in snakes will be their certifiable heritage?

Good input Toad Country,

I don't feel that putting a snake under G.A is a suitable outcome. Surely there could be negative aspects of this if say using a hatchling Chondro, the stress on the animal could be enough to turn the animal off it's food ect. Doing this procedure on an older animal once it was say 12 months old, leaves loop holes in the system. i.e, the breeder has to holdback any hatchlings the are going to registered until they are old enough to safely go through the procedure. Another example where it may not work is that if the breeder was to sell the hatchlings and the buyer has to take it to get micro chipped at 6 months of age ect, the proof is lost.

I am using Green Pythons as an example as they change their colour, patterns and markings as they mature so either DNA or micro chipping is the only way that I can see it beeing 90 + % fool proof. If you want to deem a snake registered, surely the outlay of proceedures involved to make a positve I.D, would be worth more than the snake.

There were some Native Chondros advertised on Herp Trader a few months ago. These animals were stunning, feeding well and the parents displayed spectacular full white dorsal stripes as good as any wild Chondro that I have seen in Iron Range. It was obvious that these were as close to Native Chondro's in appearance as you could get without going out and illegally catching them in person. I was so tempted to buy a few however I did not know the seller personally so I did not proceed.

What I am saying is that even if though I was 99% sure that these snakes were pure Australian Natives and the best looking parents advertised for a long time, I could not be certain of the heritage of the animals so I passed it up. If I was to buy more Native Chondros in the future, I would only buy from someone that I personally know and could see that they had the full dorsal stripe. I guess that in this instance, the descision to buy native Aussie Chondros is all about the colour!

If I want a Jungle, I want a fluro yellow animal, if I wanted a Native Chondro, than I wan't a full unbroken white dorsal stripe, as this is what sets them apart from the others. I have had countless Chondros through my hands over the last 6 years and IMO a full white dorsal striped animal is worth more to me personally than any Mite Phase ect. If I wanted to buy natives, I would not buy them unless they had unbroken white stripes as that is what makes them special.

 

[Waterrat]

"And on another note - what you are doing by fleshing things out with regard to your original question, is both eccentric, and highly intelligent. I just hope that I don't get too fatigued by the end result."

Just who are you ToadCountry? Some kind of reptile keeper's Police?

 

[viridis]

Nick, I am going to simply leave this dialog. You can wonder why as much as you like, others will know.

What happened in the last 12 hours

 

[Waterrat]

In the last 12 hours some people screwed this thread. Wana talk about TIP tagging, register, etc, go to the new thread - I opened one for you.
If anyone wants to attack me on a personal level - knock on my front door.

 

[Fantazmic]

Assessing the looks, handling, "personality", whatever, ....... that's all good if you're buying a reptile form a local breeder (and he/she lets you to go all over the animal). What should people look for or how should they go about selecting a snake say from Pilbara Pythons or from me?

Recently I bought a Snake from a breeder in Qld. I based my choice on discussion about his breeding practice.....the way he spoke to me let me know the sort of person he was. I also looked at the postings he has put on the forum which also gave me an idea of who he was, next was photographs of the snakes he thought would be suitable and lastly.......I just had to trust him. Incidently I am happy with the snakes I received which confirmed that I was either lucky or had made a good decision to trust the person i did. Incidently I would buy a green tree python from you Michael and again this is because you have a high profile on the forum and I know the ethics you stand for (however whether you would sell me one remains to be seen !!). Trouble is I dont trust myself to be able to look after one yet !!!!!

Ive just realised something...I picked my snake on colour I had nothing else to go on....and if memory served me right I didnt even ask about temperament because the snakes were hatchies and I know that baby snakes are snappy so it was pointless asking whether they were calm or not.

and what was my excitement about....the unusual markings of the female...the potential to buy her brother so i could do a line breeding if I ever do decide to have a clutch in the future....eeeeek...how superficial am I lol

 

[MD-Mummy]

I admit Im not really into the Darwins... yet my hubby is, hence why he has 2!!! I love my Murray yet she was chosen because I liked her markings. So to a degree ours were chosen on looks however I think that while some cross bred animals are fine (we have a x bred dog) in any animal/reptile u have to take into consideration the health and personality issues. My Murray, who is 3 and a half months old, has actually displayed what i have been told is Proserpine activity, as she is sooo bloody nosey and curious!! But i know 150% that she is a pure Murray, just a very curious one!!! I would not have a cross bred snake personally simply for the fact u can never guarantee behavioural issues with a pure snake, a cross bred one is going to be harder. I mean if, for arguments sake, my murray is snappy I know its because 1 she is due to shed or 2 she is hungry, yet if she was a cross there is another whole list of things it could be and I believe I would be forever guessing. I like the idea of knowing what to expect (in most cases) with my snake. But this is simply MY personal opinion. (E)

 

[Fantazmic]

the same could be said for your cross bred dog......because you get traits from both lines.....it has been crossed with...thats assuming it is a first generation cross from pure bred lines....if it has a mixed pedigree there is nothing you can predict from you dog...other than that you can trust it and know it from past experience...so saying that the dogs behaviour is predictable even though it is crossed doesnt make sense.

 

[serpenttongue]

a hybrid holds little value for me. It's probably my own prejudice but they seem so artificial, less real if that makes sense.

Like an imitation of the real thing!

What really gets to me is that so many people in this hobby have no interest in getting out and seeing these animals (that they claim to have such an interest in) in their natural environment. They would much prefer to keep them in a melamine box in their house, yet have no idea what their natural environment looks like or how they behave in the wild. They only know what they have seen in a shop or read on an internet forum. I believe if you really have a genuine interest in our native reptiles then the ultimate feeling is to get out and appreciate them for yourself, in the wild. Not herping at a pet shop.

True. It certainly separates the men from the boys. A true herper will get off his butt and go out bush whenever he can, even knowing he may not come across a thing all day.