Another question about intergrades

[SnakeWrangler]

Intergade zones are actually a buffer zone area where the species split into different forms(subspecies) so share charactoristics of both distinct forms. They WERE NOT formed were a wild Diamond bred with a wild Carpet somewhere in the past. They are actually the link where nature divided a species. They are neither pure Carpet or Diamond but a mixture of both colour forms as the species divided. This is why intergrades to the south mainly resemble Diamonds and to the north they mainly resemble Carpets.

Intergrades were never wild hybrids, but rather where Diamonds slowly turned into Carpets as nature formed 2 sub species for some unknown reason(more then likely climate). They are virtually a subspecies in themselves, having a different genectical fingerprint then either Diamonds or Carpets.

This explanation makes alot of sense, and agrees totally with the idea that integrades are not the product of diamond X coastal but rather the complete opposite. This concept makes more sense to me, as I said when it was first suggested.

One thought I had after reading that down south integrades resemble diamonds and up north they resemble coastals, maybe this is because at the extremes of the integrades range they are still breeding with those next to them. This of course would mean that where the different forms meet you would find hybrids, maybe it is the case that you can really only find pure specimens in the heart of their range and not on the edge where they meet other forms.

Nice explanation bigguy, but one thing, WHERE WERE YOU BEFORE!!! :lol:

As a note, IF and that is a big IF, the integrades were somehow proven to have come from diamond X coastal then I would still hold that everything I said early to be true, however if it is as bigguy and others believe (and have convinced me), then everything I said earlier is useless and invalid, even though most of you probably thought this anyway. :lol:

Also, if there is a glossary of terms made I think bigguy's explanation should be pasted along side the term 'Integrade'.

Cheers.

 

[moosenoose]

Nice explanation bigguy, but one thing, WHERE WERE YOU BEFORE!!! :lol:
.

I agree! And to think we could have lost the big lug! :lol:

 

[bigguy]

Sw, scientists now believe snakes came to Australia across a land bridge to the north. If this is the case I would say Carpets were here first so Diamonds must have been formed from Carpets(I am only assuming this by the way) as they adapted to the cooler southern east coast. We are talking about 300 to 400klm strip of the coast between Coffs And Karuha.

To the north they more closely resemble Carpets as this is where they first started adapting to the change to Diamonds. At the southern range they more closeley resemble Diamonds as this is what they were eventually changing into.

I have no doubt that on the extreme borders of the changeover zone that intergrades may hybridize with pures, afterall there is no wall seperating them.

 

[peterescue]

isnt that what I wrote, Jeeeeezuuz H. Wheres that head bangin thing

 

[BROWNS]

I have no doubt that on the extreme borders of the changeover zone that intergrades may hybridize with pures, afterall there is no wall seperating them.

Bob this is why i asked in that other thread where do intergrades stop being intergrades and become pure coastals,to which you answered the Northern range of the intergrade is a jagged line through Coffs Harbour and only 20 k's away they are pure coastal!!!

Now you are saying that they don't stop being pure intergrades and can still hybridize in the wild which to me still means an intergrade of the 2 species as it happens in the wild...not man made!!!If there is no wall seperating them then how do they become pure coastals only 20 k's away???

Another question to ponder is if say a Jungle escaped from my collection into the bush and bred with the local carpet species couldn't that completely stuff up the whole gene pool eventually in that area and same goes for many other species that could well escape from collections into their non natural zones and breed with the local species????????

The discussion goes on!!!

 

[dee4]

Perfect logic, makes sense Bob. Exactly why I posted this thread was to get some of the unanswered questions answered.

Dee4, it is not uncommon to see intergrades that may look nearly completely like a pure Diamond or Carpet. Its only when you look very closely you may see some differences. In these cases people could easily be mislead into thinking they have a pure snake. As for Browns pics. No3 is obviously a intergrade. No1, even though very Diamondish in appearence, has some brownish colouration on its back. As for No2, from the pic I can not tell wether that was an intergrade or pure Diamond. I have seen heaps of Diamonds around Gosford that closely resemble that snake. Maybe if seen in real life some differences may be detected, but at the moment we can only go on the location given.

Thanks for pointing out a question asked a few times, it answers a lot for me anyway.

 

[dee4]

Another question to ponder is if say a Jungle escaped from my collection into the bush and bred with the local carpet species couldn't that completely stuff up the whole gene pool eventually in that area and same goes for many other species that could well escape from collections into their non natural zones and breed with the local species????????

Hypotheticals again, it never ends.

 

[SnakeWrangler]

Peter, yes you were the first one that I can see to suggest this in this thread, however we went on to continue talking as though it was diamond X coastal, which if was found to be true I would go back to everything I have previous said because it would stand to reason.

You will see in my first post after you saying that, I acknowledged how reasonable your suggestion was and I thought it more probable. There difference is that you gave nowhere near the description that bigguy did. Bigguy's description has convinced me of this idea.

If the coastals were the first (as bigguy hypothesises), I would still be easily able to believe that all forms of Morelia spilota descended from the first original species which split as bigguy described. Coastals today still have the genetic information to produced all the colours found in the Morelia spilota even Morelia bredli, and is it correct that they are also the largest of all Morelia spilota?

 

[bigguy]

Browns, you appear to come across as a person who has knowledge of Jungle Carpets. Can you tell me exactly where their range stops and Coastals begin. I want you to tell me the exact line seperating the two. Now tell me what is to stop a pure Coastal mating with a pure Jungle along that line, or do all species know not to cross the border.

 

[shanesaussie_pythons]

intergrades

Biguy hi mate that sounds like a question for one of those SUEDO EXSPERTS YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT regards shane from A.P

 

[Greebo]

RE: intergrades

You know those signs you see on the side of the road that say "Wombats crossing next 2 km". They probably have something like that. "Snakes no cross breeding next 10 km."

 

[dee4]

RE: intergrades

WELL, that would make it a lot less confusing I think.

 

[BROWNS]

RE: intergrades

Browns, you appear to come across as a person who has knowledge of Jungle Carpets. Can you tell me exactly where their range stops and Coastals begin. I want you to tell me the exact line seperating the two. Now tell me what is to stop a pure Coastal mating with a pure Jungle along that line, or do all species know not to cross the border.

I don't know of any exact line where a jungles range stops and coastals begin as many places where there are jungles there are also coastals.The quote below is from another thread,and they would also be found sharing localities around Kuranda,Cairns,Port Douglas and i'm guessing Mission Beach as well,as you get further up the Atherton Tablelands i have noticed Atherton Jungles which are still cheynei fade out and you start finding Cape York carpets....The Burdekin River begins in a small place way up on the Tablelands called Reedebrook and runs right through some jungle territory down to and through Ayr,same as the Johnstone River in Innisfail where coastals and jungles also overlap..... taking a good hypothetical guess guess i would say it wouldn't be hard for a jungle to float downstream from either areas and end up where jungles stop being found and i doubt it has anything to do with elevation either as Cairns ,Innisfail and Mission Beach are right on the coast and Cairns is so low and flat a huge king tide and a good cyclone would flatten the place.Just as an example what i have mentioned in one area about your question is this quote from another thread...

quote=BROWNS wrote...Now what about jungle coastal intergrades......you can go up the Plmerston highway and see a plain old coastal and then a screamer of a jungle sharing the same territory.Who says some of these wild jungles have no coastal in them and the same with coastals having some jungle in them?The carpets up that way all seem to have thye jungle type head pattern...it's all pretty confusing but i think there have been studies done on this too!!!

This is from another thread and i'm talking in reference to where you state pure intergrades stop being pure intergrades 20 k's away from that jagged line through Coffs....

quote = BROWNS wrote....So within that jagged line through Coffs the intergrades all of a sudden become pure coastals???
quote=Bigguy wrote...Browns, it appear so. Most intergrades from the far northern range tend to closely resemble Carpets, with a hint of Diamond. This is typical at Coffs Harbour. But just 20klms north at Woolgoolga they appear pure Carpets with not a trace of Diamond.

I have found the same at the southern boundaries. The Intergrades I have seen appear to go south to Karuah and to the Coast at Port Stephens, but travel just 20 klms further south and pure Diamonds are found with no trace at all of Carpet in them.

All i'm saying is from your answer to my question is that you say they go from pure intergade to pure coastal only 20 k's away from each other but then you say they do not know not to cross that border and intergades can still breed with a pure coastal in the wild...now to me that still makes them intergrades and who knows in another hundred years the intergrade zone may extend further North again.....Pretty plausable theory if you ask me but hey i'm far from an expert on either diamond coastal intergaeds or jungle coastal intergrades but have a fair grasp on the whole situation...you appear to be the expert who knows all so maybe you can tell me the answer to your question about where jungles range stops and coastals start???

As i said earlier i believe many areas have both jungles and coastals in the same region and who's to say there's no jungle in the coastals and vica versa?Anyway the question and whole topic is on Diamond coastal intergrades,intergrades,intergrades...i'm not going to be sleeping again tonight cause of that bloody word :lol:

Biguy hi mate that sounds like a question for one of those SUEDO EXSPERTS YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT regards shane from A.P

If you are referring to me Shane from Aussie-Pythons?I hope not,but if so you go take a flying you know what at a rolling donught or maybe even educate the masses with your own input into this discussion!!!

 

[moosenoose]

Re: RE: intergrades

isnt that what I wrote, Jeeeeezuuz H. Wheres that head bangin thing

No! If so, it was poorly explained. Where's my head banging thing? :roll: :wink:

Hypotheticals again, it never ends.

Nice one dee4! :lol: :lol:

Biguy hi mate that sounds like a question for one of those SUEDO EXSPERTS YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT regards shane from A.P

If you are referring to me Shane from Aussie-Pythons?I hope not,but if so you go take a flying you know what at a rolling donught or maybe even educate the masses with your own input into this discussion!!!

Hahahahaha I love it! :lol:

Thanks Bob for enlightening this topic a little further. It really didn't seem totally clear cut to me with the definitions being used. I honestly thought I knew what was being talked about a little more than I did - but now realised I was way off the mark. I still have questions but I think I'll watch this time :lol: ( are you impressed Ad? :lol: :lol and see more of the results. Awesome discussion!

Thanks so much to the ppl here in the know, and have assisted in trying to enlighten us with your knowledge on this matter. This, if you can believe it, is exactly why I joined this site. (oh and appart from the "Days of our Lives" sagas that go on here - marriages and births :lol

Cheers,
Luke

 

[dee4]

RE: Re: RE: intergrades

Browns, you appear to come across as a person who has knowledge of Jungle Carpets.

I think that was a compliment Browns.

...you appear to be the expert who knows all so maybe you can tell me the answer to your question about where jungles range stops and coastals start???

Ran out of Chill pills hey?HEHEHE :lol:

Anyway the question and whole topic is on Diamond coastal intergrades,intergrades,intergrades...i'm not going to be sleeping again tonight cause of that bloody word

No it's not Browns, in general terms it's about intergrades and from what I can figure the word intergrade that you are so scared about and keeps you awake at night could be widely used for any subspecies in the wild with any areas that cross over into one anothers zones/areas.

If only pythons were prejudice like humans! Would we have intergrades then? Would we have a vast variety of pythons of which we all love? What would we have to do with ourselves?

 

[BROWNS]

RE: Re: RE: intergrades

I think that was a compliment Browns.

You really think so????????

Quote:

...you appear to be the expert who knows all so maybe you can tell me the answer to your question about where jungles range stops and coastals start???



Ran out of Chill pills hey?HEHEHE

Yep certainly have.....i just didn't like the demanding way in which this question quoted below was asked.....as i perceive it as basically suggesting i don't know what i'm talking about and as i've said i'm far from an expert like Bigguy who says he's been in the reptile game for 30 years and longer but i do have a fair grasp on the situation being discussed!!!

I want you to tell me the exact line seperating the two.

Now tell me what is to stop a pure Coastal mating with a pure Jungle along that line, or do all species know not to cross the border.

Question answered above...

No it's not Browns, in general terms it's about intergrades and from what I can figure the word intergrade that you are so scared about and keeps you awake at night could be widely used for any subspecies in the wild with any areas that cross over into one anothers zones/areas.

Yeah sorry dee4 it's just that there's been about 3-4 threads in the last couple of days about diamond coastal intergrades and so far the only other intergrade brought up in this thread is jungle coastal intergrade is what i'm getting at.Also it beats me where you get the idea i'm scared of the word intergrade.....it actually annoys me because the word has been discussed to death and still will be i'm sure...or you're just joking and i don't see the funny side to it.And as for the rest of your sentence"tell me something i didn't already know!!!"

Now maybe Bob could you please tell us all your expert views on jungle coastal intergrades and maybe a few of the others dee4 originally asked about.....you say you have the knowledge so why not share it around,that's what the threads really about and everybody wants to know don't they???

I may be coming across a bit blunt but that's me,i'm pretty straight up and don't like to beat around the bush....and the discussion continues!!!

 

[fishead]

Bigguy said a few posts ago that it is believed that snakes made their way down through the country via a land bridge and that diamonds most likely evolved from coastals.
As we all know there is variation within populations and maybe as they ranged into more temperate country the darker animals were more successful due to more efficient heat absorbtion and natural selection brought about our diamonds? Is the "intergrade belt" an ancient example of a species adapting to a climate change and not actually a meeting of two variants? If so then that would be the case with all of the carpets?
Must admit that sounds a lot more plausible than the conventional thinking of two separate populations meeting at some point and interbreeding.
If that is the case I wonder if there is in fact any readable genetic differences to be found between the two? Or any of the carpets for that matter? Note that I said readable.
I know jack about genetics but it would be very interesting to know hey.
Bye, Steve.

 

[dee4]

Thanks for ya input Browns

 

[SnakeWrangler]

I think the reason there is no major difference in genes between the forms is because they most likely came from a single original species.

I know almost everyone will disagree but it is not really evolution when a single species branches into sub-species. The orignal species would have had the genetic information to create a wide variety of different sized and coloured/patterned offspring, as the snakes travelled down (unless they went up, who really knows for sure??) and came to areas that were colder the ones that were born with darker colours were able to survive the cold conditions due to better heat absortion, what this means is that only those specimens born with darker colours could survive there, because the others didn't, darker ones only had darker ones to breed with, therefore the ability to produced wide colour variants was slowly bred out and a stable colour form was created. This is natural selection, it is a distinct loss of genetic information.

You will never get a snake that looks exactly like a jungle carpet python from a diamond python because the genetic information is gone. However because they both come from the same original species they have almost identical DNA, but there is a difference because they have both retained and lost different parts of the original genes. Evolution is completely different, evoultion says that organisms started off with little genetic information and over time gained new information and became more complex. Natural selection is not about creating new species but rather dictating what can live where.

Therefore what has happened to these snakes is natural selection and not evolution. Just my opinion, I know it will not be accepted by most, if not all, but unless someone who knows alot about genetics can tell me that my concept of them is wrong, I will continue to hold to it.

Cheers.

 

[Greebo]

So what exactly is Diamond Python Syndrome??