It's all in the colour

[Waterrat]

Cheers Gordo, I will join you soon.
Now it's getting really confusing who is directing what at whom, poor Zack13, he must be choking on his popcorn.

 

[zack13]

Michael I have a question for you since you do have a deep and thorough understanding of gtp's and were a zoologist.
If a PhD student was to look at the different localities of gtp's to see if there is enough genetic diversity in them to sort them as different subspecies what would you think the outcome would be?

 

[ramzee86]

This is pretty crazy...
Whether we like it or not something more colourful/bright or different is going to be more sought after...
i don't think people (such as giglamesh and kawasikrider) are really getting what the point of this thread is.

First, i think Michael is trying to say that making a hybrid, an UNNATURAL snake (which most of the time has a a deformity), just for colours is pretty LOW... - (And he is asking for reasons for it, if it isn't colours)
Second, Breeding two GTP's (or any other snake) for best qualities of both (Even if they are different locality), creates a NATURAL snake, with Natural characteristics that could be found in the wild, and will act like its wild cousins...
im sure the 'Mite Phase' GTP's can be found in the wild, because its not like they have been crossed with anything.

Third, A brighter Jungle carpet python is going to be more sought after than a dull one, because either way they are both naturally occurring, both have the same characteristics but one is brighter, so may as well get the brighter one?

Its just pretty ridiculous how some people don't see the difference between breeding a Woma and a Burmese for colours compared to breeding two Australian Native green tree pythons for a brighter green/better dorsal stripe.


I respect you michael for putting up with the crap people give you when they really have no idea... especially when this thread had nothing to do with your collection when you started it.

 

[longqi]

It seems that fairly soon the morelia viridis will no longer be morelia viridis
The experts are trying to sort out exactly what to call them now
They will probably end up as three or possibly more sub species within one grouping

 

[ToadCountry]

To quote Minka

"....Also, because of the selection pressure for performance, no horse breeder in their right mind would actively select for a conformational fault, as occurs in certain small animal breeds.

The truth is there is room for every flavour in the hobby. I am not going to get into the nitty gritty of why i keep what i keep simply because it is pointless as each to their own right?..."

Incidence of the endothelin receptor B mutation th... [Am J Vet Res. 2001] - PubMed result
Hyperkalaemic periodic paralysis in homozygous and... [Equine Vet J. 1999] - PubMed result
Index
VetGen: Veterinary Genetic Services - Equine - References - CID: The Paradigm Has Shifted
And some great articles on Lavender Foal Syndrome.....it involves the single deletion of the myosin 5A gene.

Some nice percentages for you..........and it bears thinking about that breeders will still breed knowing the risks.

Same analogy of horses to reptiles, of course
And by your own inclusion - you state that no horse breeder in their right mind would breed knowing the risks?

My point is, that not every "breeder" is in their right mind. LOL......
Especially when "colour" and "markings" are a primary consideration.

 

[zack13]

This is pretty crazy...
Whether we like it or not something more colourful/bright or different is going to be more sought after...
i don't think people (such as giglamesh and kawasikrider) are really getting what the point of this thread is.

First, i think Michael is trying to say that making a hybrid, an UNNATURAL snake (which most of the time has a a deformity), just for colours is pretty LOW... - (And he is asking for reasons for it, if it isn't colours)
Second, Breeding two GTP's (or any other snake) for best qualities of both (Even if they are different locality), creates a NATURAL snake, with Natural characteristics that could be found in the wild, and will act like its wild cousins...
im sure the 'Mite Phase' GTP's can be found in the wild, because its not like they have been crossed with anything.

Third, A brighter Jungle carpet python is going to be more sought after than a dull one, because either way they are both naturally occurring, both have the same characteristics but one is brighter, so may as well get the brighter one?

Its just pretty ridiculous how some people don't see the difference between breeding a Woma and a Burmese for colours compared to breeding two Australian Native green tree pythons for a brighter green/better dorsal stripe.


I respect you michael for putting up with the crap people give you when they really have no idea... especially when this thread had nothing to do with your collection when you started it.

I would like to know how breeding two different localities such as an Aussie native and one from mainland Papua is natural. Last time I checked they don't fly planes or catch boats to breed.

It seems that fairly soon the morelia viridis will no longer be morelia viridis
The experts are trying to sort out exactly what to call them now
They will probably end up as three or possibly more sub species within one grouping

If you were answering my question thank you. Personally I think they will be grouped into different subspecies and wouldn't mind doing my PhD on it.

 

[ramzee86]

I would like to know how breeding two different localities such as an Aussie native and one from mainland Papua is natural. Last time I checked they don't fly planes or catch boats to breed.

Your taking it out of context, all i was trying to say is that breeding two different localites of the same species - which will display normal wild behaviours is extremely different to breeding a carpet python to a ball python - which will never show natural behaviours because they are complete different species.

and Toad Country i find it extremely hard to believe that all of your snakes are locality specific.

 

[Southside Morelia]

I dont think many people complain about selective breeding for colour within a species
Which really alters no genetic codes as far as I am aware??
But they do complain about mixing species which must alter genetic codes??

How far do we go with mixing species before enough is enough??

Can we take this to the final stage??
I am no rocket scientist but are humans related to the great apes somewhere along the line?
Would those who support mixing animal species also support trying to mix say orangutans with human embryos??

There has to be a point when sanity prevails

I agree with your comments, BUT that is "exactly" the point of conjecture and the main topic of this thread...."Its all in the Colour", people are NOT liking changing the colour of a specie through selective breeding, some would want a "normal" looking bush roaming native animal over a selective/line bred animal that was purposely bred for the desired trait.
The thread has taken a turn for the worse, although Micheal's original thought provoking comment was, are people only purchasing snakes for their colours, or words to that effect.
About the other comments.....I am also debauched like kawasakirider and wouldn't mind seeing that as an experiment...lol I can only imagine the waxing bills for the girls and boys living near the beach...
They are already experimenting with putting pigs organs into humans and growing ears on rats..it will happen for sure one day. Just like cloning...now that's another topic all together.

 

[Waterrat]

Michael I have a question for you since you do have a deep and thorough understanding of gtp's and were a zoologist.
If a PhD student was to look at the different localities of gtp's to see if there is enough genetic diversity in them to sort them as different subspecies what would you think the outcome would be?

Zak, some of it has been done and published by Donnellan & Rollings (the reference is at the end of the "GTP Fact Sheet" - sticky), in a nut shell, they found that the populations north of the PNG central highlands and the southern populations are genetically distinct. The also examined the Australian population v southern PNG.
There is more work to be done but I think it's happening as we speak. I don't want to say who and what, it's up to the researcher (member here) to comment if he wished to do so. If you were to take it up as a PhD project, make sure you have bottomless research funds because traveling throughout PNG, West Papua and Indonesia is very, very expensive and some of the localities are difficult to access.
I have no idea what the outcome would be, possible split into 2 species, who knows? Hoser already described and named a second species but that's Hoser. Personally, I don't recognise the criteria for sub-species, so won't go into that.

Cheers
M

I would like to know how breeding two different localities such as an Aussie native and one from mainland Papua is natural. Last time I checked they don't fly planes or catch boats to breed.

The word "natural" can be ambiguous, especially when it comes to GTP, the're such a can of worms. One species, many, many colour morphs found in different altitudes, some locale specific, some not so.

 

[zack13]

Zak, some of it has been done and published by Donnellan & Rollings (the reference is at the end of the "GTP Fact Sheet" - sticky), in a nut shell, they found that the populations north of the PNG central highlands and the southern populations are genetically distinct. The also examined the Australian population v southern PNG.
There is more work to be done but I think it's happening as we speak. I don't want to say who and what, it's up to the researcher (member here) to comment if he wished to do so. If you were to take it up as a PhD project, make sure you have bottomless research funds because traveling throughout PNG, West Papua and Indonesia is very, very expensive and some of the localities are difficult to access.
I have no idea what the outcome would be, possible split into 2 species, who knows? Hoser already described and named a second species but that's Hoser. Personally, I don't recognise the criteria for sub-species, so won't go into that.

Cheers
M



The word "natural" can be ambiguous, especially when it comes to GTP, the're such a can of worms. One species, many, many colour morphs found in different altitudes, some locale specific, some not so.

Thank you for that I didn't realize there was a paper attached to the fact sheet I will go read it now. I also realize it would be expensive I guess I should start saving now lol.

 

[Southside Morelia]

Zak, some of it has been done and published by Donnellan & Rollings (the reference is at the end of the "GTP Fact Sheet" - sticky), in a nut shell, they found that the populations north of the PNG central highlands and the southern populations are genetically distinct. The also examined the Australian population v southern PNG.
There is more work to be done but I think it's happening as we speak. I don't want to say who and what, it's up to the researcher (member here) to comment if he wished to do so. If you were to take it up as a PhD project, make sure you have bottomless research funds because traveling throughout PNG, West Papua and Indonesia is very, very expensive and some of the localities are difficult to access.
I have no idea what the outcome would be, possible split into 2 species, who knows? Hoser already described and named a second species but that's Hoser. Personally, I don't recognise the criteria for sub-species, so won't go into that.

Cheers
M
The word "natural" can be ambiguous, especially when it comes to GTP, the're such a can of worms. One species, many, many colour morphs found in different altitudes, some locale specific, some not so.

The BEST post on the thread, some great insight to a young person that may take up the cause....which was what the thread was started for and what M was trying to get across...although I like my morphs, forgive me M.
Kudos M and Zack do it Buddy.....

 

[ToadCountry]

Your taking it out of context, all i was trying to say is that breeding two different localites of the same species - which will display normal wild behaviours is extremely different to breeding a carpet python to a ball python - which will never show natural behaviours because they are complete different species.

and Toad Country i find it extremely hard to believe that all of your snakes are locality specific.

I totally agree with you in the first part ramzee86 -and as to the second, I'll let you keep wondering, but I'll give you a hint.....I'm in Cairns mate.

 

[zack13]

Your taking it out of context, all i was trying to say is that breeding two different localites of the same species - which will display normal wild behaviours is extremely different to breeding a carpet python to a ball python - which will never show natural behaviours because they are complete different species.

and Toad Country i find it extremely hard to believe that all of your snakes are locality specific.

How am I taking it out of context?
Present in or produced by nature: That is the definition of the word. I think that just because it is accepted by our social norms that localities can be mixed doesn't make it right. I used GTP's as purpose as well since it is very possible they are different subspecies.

 

[Waterrat]

Zak, I am seriously going to devote my time to the red wine now, but when I bet back here in the morning, ...... can you tell me how do you define a sub-species, particularly in relation to DNA?

Cheers
M

 

[Wookie]

???

You'll bruise the wine pouring it like that mate, tilt the glass! :lol:

 

[-Katana-]

You'll bruise the wine pouring it like that mate, tilt the glass! :lol:

Peasant!
Pleazze...you decant it and allow it to breathe first!:lol::lol::lol:

 

[CrystalMoon]

Peasant!
Pleazze...you decant it and allow it to breathe first!:lol::lol::lol:

Snicker, at least your all cultured(not like blue vein)I am not refined enough to enjoy imbibing old grapes PMSL...........

 

[bump73]

How come my cask doesn't come with one of those fancy pouring spouts??:x:?

 

[kawasakirider]

i don't think people (such as giglamesh and kawasikrider) are really getting what the point of this thread is..

If you read my posts, you'd see that I admit that I don't know much about this and I am merely asking for waterrat to explain more, as I was interested.

Maybe you aren't really getting the point of anything.

 

[D3pro]

can you tell me how do you define a sub-species, particularly in relation to DNA?

1) Take a skin sample, 2) look at the screen with all the numbers and complex dna code structures, 3) say a few smart words then 4) make a huge guess... *

*Step 1 to 3 are not needed

:lol: