It's all in the colour

[Jay84]

making a hybrid, an UNNATURAL snake (which most of the time has a a deformity), just for colours is pretty LOW...

Huh? Do you know if this is a fact? As i have not heard of increased deformities in hybrids?

 

[longqi]

Interbreeding of distinctly different species such as was done overseas to produce what they call jags has resulted in some neurological problems that were not commonly found in either of the species mixed together
I think that might be classified as a deformity??
To say they have deformities most of the time is probably incorrect but there appears to be a much higher risk of problems

The trouble does not start or finish with that type of problem
I have a friend in Surabaya who had an enormous female jungle???
I say it was a jungle because it looked identical to a top quality Tully
Clearly defined bright yellow and very dark brown
Skull on top of the head
Only difference is that this one weighed 13kg and was over 3 metres long
Absolutely gorgeous snake
He had no idea of the lineage as he bought it in Malaysia at an animal market there

He also has a line of dwarf retics one of which is a striped lavender and also gorgeous at just over 3metres
He put the two together one morning hoping to have them mate
Everything looked good so he left them overnight
He now owns a very badly scarred male retic and a dead female 'jungle'

Admittedly there is a very very slight chance of this happening when any two snakes are put together
But it seems to be much more common when attempting what he did

What will happen with Australian is possibly different because there will not be the same bloodlines being used
But the potential is there whenever we play god for things to happen that are to the detriment of this industry

 

[DanN]

"Take a skin sample, 2) look at the screen with all the numbers and complex dna code structures, 3) say a few smart words then 4) make a huge guess... *"

Had me in stitches - pretty much sums it up!

 

[Jay84]

Interbreeding of distinctly different species such as was done overseas to produce what they call jags has resulted in some neurological problems that were not commonly found in either of the species mixed together
I think that might be classified as a deformity?? I thought that JAG's were bred from carpet pythons?
To say they have deformities most of the time is probably incorrect but there appears to be a much higher risk of problems

The trouble does not start or finish with that type of problem
I have a friend in Surabaya who had an enormous female jungle???
I say it was a jungle because it looked identical to a top quality Tully
Clearly defined bright yellow and very dark brown
Skull on top of the head
Only difference is that this one weighed 13kg and was over 3 metres long
Absolutely gorgeous snake
He had no idea of the lineage as he bought it in Malaysia at an animal market there

He also has a line of dwarf retics one of which is a striped lavender and also gorgeous at just over 3metres
He put the two together one morning hoping to have them mate
Everything looked good so he left them overnight
He now owns a very badly scarred male retic and a dead female 'jungle'
This could happen with ANY species of snake! You can not bring this into the argument surely?
Admittedly there is a very very slight chance of this happening when any two snakes are put together
But it seems to be much more common when attempting what he did

What will happen with Australian is possibly different because there will not be the same bloodlines being used
But the potential is there whenever we play god for things to happen that are to the detriment of this industry

.

 

[D3pro]

Most of the morphs come from constant inbreeding, not interbreeding.

 

[longqi]

.

I believe that the first jags were from an irian jaya carpet crossed with a mcdowelli if memory serves me correctly
Someone here will have the exact details that were released
But there has always been doubt about exactly who crossed what with which
regardless of that there far too many stories told and documented to ever doubt that jags have a much higher chance of neurological problems than other snakes
Please check any international reptile forum if you doubt this
I have not heard of these problems with Australian bloodlines but we are only at the very start of jags etc

I included that story and the sentence after it which you studiously ignored to point out a fact that is becoming reported more and more as people push the envelope
In 17 years of breeding different varieties of reptile I have had 1 [one] occasion when they attacked each other and at no stage did they look like they were going to kill each other
Hybrid breeders seem to have this as a recurring problem so I think it is very pertinent to this question

 

[ramzee86]

Huh? Do you know if this is a fact? As i have not heard of increased deformities in hybrids?

Really? I think the reason there aren't that many hybrids is because a lot of the time, they will either 1. kill each other, 2. have slugs, 3. Have babies with deformities.

If you breed two Jungles you are more likely to have succesful breeding, eggs and hatchies compared to if you breed a scrub python and a children's python. Correct me if i am wrong?
What snakes can you breed to make a hybrid? - Yahoo! Answers

And from what i know all Jags have neurological deformities, just to different extents.

 

[zack13]

Out of curiosity has anyone heard about polar bears and grizzly bears mating and producing a new species in the wild. It is quite amazing.

To longqi I think what Jay is saying is all carpet pythons are one species. This species however consists of many different sub species.

To Michael I'm not sure I could tell you the difference between them from a genetic perspective. The difference between being a species and sub species seem grey at best to me. I have read numerous scientific reports about it and there have been cases where populations of species have had more diversity in a 35 enzyme loci test then tests done on different sub species. I would be very interested to hear why you do not support the criteria for sub species though and what you would do different.

 

[PimmsPythons]

the first jag was produced by 2 coastal carpets in 1994. i have the info here but i'm not up on the whole copy/paste thing
cheers
simon

 

[krefft]

I'm yet to have a coffee so this will be brief, but there's nothing like a hybrid thread to bring everyone out of the woodwork.

It's constantly inferred that if your into hybrids, crosses or colour then you must be a newbie or superficial. That's simply not true.
I see no problem in taking an interest in all types of reptiles, be they occurring naturally or not. Plenty of serious long term keepers I know get more excited about some of the crosses being produced these days.

The big truth that many of the purists refuse to accept is that every single one of us here are producing animals for the pet trade...that's all they will ever be, pets. It doesn't matter how anal you want to be on locale they are still just for the pet trade.

You just need to see what Taronga is doing with the Corroboree Frog to grasp the complexity of breeding for a higher purpose.

I have a friend who has produced several generations on native chondro's. He naturally pairs the most attractive animals together....he's going for high white. How many generations of line breeding locale specific animals does it take before you get a clutch that is no longer a true representation of it's wild ancestors? The answer is it doesn't matter, the results the same...pets.
And if you're really good at it people will no longer believe that they are "pure" and you will be labelled not only cross breeder but a liar also.
It's ok to like both people.

 

[Waterrat]

Kreft, you are right in most what you're saying except for one thing - to apply the term "pet" to reptiles is arbitrary and not accepted by all herp keepers. There is a huge difference between a "pet" that sits on the owners lap, both watching TV (at least that's what the owner thinks) and a reptile, say Peter Krauss's collection. I also don't entirely agree that we all breed reptiles for the "pet trade". We are offloading our juveniles to other keepers but not necessarily to pet seekers. I for one question potential buyers as to why they want one of my snakes. If it's for a pet that will be handled to buggary every day by the whole family, I politely suggest to them to go somewhere else.
Each to their own - I respect that, all I was trying to achieve with this thread was to spark a discussion, which we had, and inspire those with more inquisitive minds to look beyond the colour of the snake. There is a lot more there.

 

[krefft]

Hi Michael, you and I are both big enough to hold a debate without either of us taking it personally, so don't feel you need to go soft on me. It's an entertaining thread, so good job.

Peter Krauss has a collection of snakes that are his pets, as we all do. It's irrelevant whether or not he get's them out and plays with them. It's like saying if you put your parrot on you shoulder it's a pet bird and if you keep it in an avery it's something different.

I find what's now being created in collections really interesting and exciting.
I spoke to a few people about that Ball x carpet in that excellent thread started by the guy claiming not to be Greg Inglis, despite photographic evidence to the contrary. It's a great looking snake despite it's ancestry. I'd keep it if I could.

I just object to the notion that if this type of thing interests you somehow you must not be a serious keeper...whatever that means.
Ok, now off to work.

 

[Waterrat]

I agree with you Chris, somewhere there I said that in my view, the morphing / crossing is an extension and development of reptile keeping in Australia. It's a fact and I don't have a problem with it. However, all (or most) of the excitement seems to flow in that direction. I am not trying to divert the flow, just point out there are aspects of reptile keeping worth exploring. not just the colour.

 

[waruikazi]

I agree with you Chris, somewhere there I said that in my view, the morphing / crossing is an extension and development of reptile keeping in Australia. It's a fact and I don't have a problem with it. However, all (or most) of the excitement seems to flow in that direction. I am not trying to divert the flow, just point out there are aspects of reptile keeping worth exploring. not just the colour.

If i'm honest the only thing i find exciting about stumbling or chancing a flash new morph is the money i could potentially make out of it. Not much else excites me about them.

I get far more excited about getting out and finding snakes in the bush. How many people on this forum can actually claim to know enough about the species they keep to reliably find them in the bush?

 

[Red-Ink]

If i'm honest the only thing i find exciting about stumbling or chancing a flash new morph is the money i could potentially make out of it. Not much else excites me about them.

I get far more excited about getting out and finding snakes in the bush. How many people on this forum can actually claim to know enough about the species they keep to reliably find them in the bush?

On that note Gordo... can you or anyone else on this thread point me to a good field herping guide (practical not species identification) I am planning to drive down from Cairns to Melbourne at the end of the year and plan to maximise that trip in terms of seeing reptiles...

 

[PilbaraPythons]

I have to wonder what the public would say if they thought that their zoo was trying to cross breed our native fauna, horrified is my guess.
Okay, I realize that this attitude would because punters visit these places to see our fauna just the way they were meant to look like and are proud of them, being nostalgic I suppose.
If we can agree on this, then I am sure some may understand why many purists keep reptiles, for the exact same reasons. The only difference is the label, private pets instead of public zoo.
Although I understand what Kreft is saying, and he is absolutely right, I still can’t help feeling that the cross breeding of reptiles badly taints our hobby both in reputation and by the identification confusion these practices cause.
I haven’t read the whole thread, If I am way off topic I appologise.

 

[Waterrat]

Most field herpers are quite secretive about their sites, so I wouldn't hold my breath that such guide would ever be published. Give me a call when you're in Cairns.

 

[Red-Ink]

On the subject of crossing...

Sometimes you see intergrades for sale, now i understand that intergrades are naturally occuring (no problems with that). What i don't understand is how people breed intergrades in captivity. Get two sub-species of morelia in the collection and breed them then call them intergrades, should they not be a straight out cross in captivity?

 

[Australis]

Now natural intergrades, this thread is going to cover all subjects.

Redink,Same way you breed any type in captivity, two of the same.
"Diamonds" and "Coastals" arent exactly meeting up in the wild to
produce intergrades as such... thats an assumption on my part
that your referring to this most "popular" of natural intergrades.

There is a fairly concise explanation by "Bigguy" somewhere on this
website ( i dont have the time for the certain back and forward of it all
right now).

 

[Red-Ink]

Now natural intergrades, this thread is going to cover all subjects.

Redink,Same way you breed any type in captivity, two of the same.
"Diamonds" and "Coastals" arent exactly meeting up in the wild to
produce intergrades as such... thats an assumption on my part
that your referring to this most "popular" of natural intergrades.

There is a fairly concise explanation by "Bigguy" somewhere on this
website ( i dont have the time for the certain back and forward of it all
right now).

Thanks Australis I will have a look for Bigguy's post