[MORPH] Morelia Milkshakes

[killimike]

Port macs,kempsey dorrigo coffs harbour rainforest diamond etc, do male combat and the sydney diamond spilota spilotas dont,for me theres just carpets and diamonds.

The part behaviour plays in distinguishing species/populations is yet another facet of the debate, good point zulu. Still, there must be a reason that snakes in the middle have features of both species, but I have never bothered to find a proper study.

Very informative & calm, this thread has gone further than I thought it would.
Well done S&M.

Agreed!

 

[AM Pythons]

here are a few of the 14 jungle x coastal super stripes i breed this year...

 

[S&M Morelia]

S&M
i just wanted to say how well your handling the thread,the thought and reason put
into your answers is great & to see a breeder openly talking and taking questions it
is good to see someone who can calmly, ethically,and knowledgeably answer not only
the legit questions but the sarcasm and thinly veiled insults as well,well done mate.
im not a huge diamond fan and for one, im waiting for what is available over the next 10yrs

nice progression
Nato

Thank Nato, I appreciate your kind comments and support.
PM sent.

Very informative & calm, this thread has gone further than I thought it would.
Well done S&M.

I agree Ian, this thread has turned out much better than I had hoped.

Heres some definitions to mull over .

Intergrade = In Australia this usually refers to the Carpet pythons from localities or intergrade zones that are found between known Diamond python and Carpet python populations. IE Port macs etc .

Intra Specific Intergrades = are usually the result of a breeding between different sub species either by captive breeding "Jungle x Diamond" or in nature where there is sub species overlap in their natural enviroment . .

OR when the same species from different localities are bred together .
IE NT Water python bred to a QLD Water python .

Technically all the above are Hybrids.

But in laymans definitions ?
Intergrades are port macs and Hybrids are Woma x Diamond type cross breeding .


Carpet python to Carpet python is still a Carpet python.
My 2 cents worth.

Thanks for your input mate. You have explained it better than what I could have.
Cheers.

... And at the end of the day it's up to the individual to choose what he/she likes.

Thats my point exactly.
Not sure if I could do the GTP x Carpet though.
But like we've said, everyone has a choice and an opinion.

here are a few of the 14 jungle x coastal super stripes i breed this year...

They look very nice, be sure to post some pictures as they grow mate.
The stripe looks pretty sweet.


Thanks everyone for their comments and concerns.
If anyone else has some pictures of their mixed morelia, feel free to put them up.

 

[Kyro]

I have posted these recently, our Diamond x Bredli. Sorry for the quality I really should get some decent pic's of him.
He was bred by a guy in western Sydney.
I also have an rpm/jag coastal x darwin albino.

 

[Kyro]

Thanks Bez, yeah he is that yellow in real life. He was appparently the result of a high yellow diamond crossed with a classic bredli.

 

[S&M Morelia]

Very nice Kyro. Good to see a few out there being shown.


Here's is another couple pictures of our Diamond x Jungle male (these pictures have been posted elsewhere so some may have seen it before)
Yeah I'd have to say he's my Fav.

 

[AM Pythons]

here is a 'spotted' morelia i breed from a coastal x jungle this year.

 

[Jeffa]

Great thread and beautiful snakes, well done.

I live in Q.L.D would it be possible for me to breed a gtp and say a jag legally? The whole hybrid/intergrade thing confuses me.
Would the EPA or QPWS come knocking on my door and if people wanted to buy the offspring what would I put on paper?
All hypothetical and I am not putting any negative energy towards this thread, just a question.
Hope none get offended.

 

[GeckPhotographer]

Ok firstly I really like your hybrids, I have nothing against hybrids, in the future I will hybridize my own.

However.

Hey all, I was taking a few pictures of our mixed species morelia and thought I'd share.

No you were taking pictures of a few mixed subspecies of Morelia. All of these are the same species. In one of your earlier posts you did say Morelia spilota spilota X Morelia bredli This is wrong. They are both species Morelia spilota. The difference is in the subspecies name for both which is extremely different to a difference in the species.

This is very important to me as it is where I define the line of an acceptable hybrid. Those at a level higher than intra-specific hybrid I do not agree with the breeding of.

At least your trying to be ethical about it, but get the terminology right they aren't hybrids as such.

They are hybrids. Realistically every animal bred in captivity that is not a clone bred back with the original animal is a hybrid. This is because hybridism truly should be defined as two animals of different genetic identity (to any level) that are not breeding in a natural setting (i.e. the wild).
What they are is intra-specific hybrids.

Integrades which have been mentioned (even if not by you) are not hybrids they are naturally occurring snakes which genetic identity contains characteristics commonly associated with two distinct subspecies (Or in rare cases species which would be a hybrid intergrade) especially if these characteristics are phenotypically displayed. I can also accept that what would 'technically' be a hybrid between two integrades of the same relative geographic area bred in captivity can acceptably be called an intergrade.

Heres some definitions to mull over .

Intergrade = In Australia this usually refers to the Carpet pythons from localities or intergrade zones that are found between known Diamond python and Carpet python populations. IE Port macs etc .

Intra Specific Intergrades = are usually the result of a breeding between different sub species either by captive breeding "Jungle x Diamond" or in nature where there is sub species overlap in their natural enviroment . .

OR when the same species from different localities are bred together .
IE NT Water python bred to a QLD Water python .

Technically all the above are Hybrids.

But in laymans definitions ?
Intergrades are port macs and Hybrids are Woma x Diamond type cross breeding .


Carpet python to Carpet python is still a Carpet python.
My 2 cents worth.

I respectfully have to disagree with these definitions.

Your first definition for integrade does not define what an intergrade is but gives an example of what one is, an example that I agree is correct.

Your second definition should be intra-specific hybrids not intra-specific integrades. Also this should not say animals where the 'borders of animals overlap'. Integrades in nature are not on a line where one side is one subspecies is on and the other side is the other. They are a broad nearly undefinable band in which many levels of variation occur.

Also a water python (Qld) to a water python (NT) would not be an integrade it would be an intra-subspecific hybrid of intergeographical area.


This is how I define things and I agree there is reasonable area for variation within definition but it should still be relatively similar to this.



All that said and done those are some lovely Morelia hybrids I can only hope they keep getting better and that as they do those concerns already raised are addressed properly.



Edit: Just one thing I forgot to mention is that if you were X breeding withwhat is currently recognized as Morelia spilota imbricata I would have a problem with it as I recognize these should be a species of their own.

 

[matt1084]

the word Viable is a big one you missed. if they produce fertile offspring go for it.
There is no argument that the snake may escape and breed with wild populations, If this is so bad people should only be allowed to keep animals from their current locality. If a pure Darwin python got out it would still breed with coastals for example and oh would you look at that babies.

 

[GeckPhotographer]

the word Viable is a big one you missed. if they produce fertile offspring go for it.
There is no argument that the snake may escape and breed with wild populations, If this is so bad people should only be allowed to keep animals from their current locality. If a pure Darwin python got out it would still breed with coastals for example and oh would you look at that babies.

Different species can produce viable offspring thus I did not miss it I choose to leave it out.
In fact you missed it in your post.

 

[S&M Morelia]

Wow, what a post geckPhotographer..

What you are saying is bredli's are a sub-species of morelia spilota? I have always thought of bredli's as being a species of morelia but not apart of the diamond/carpet species/sub-species.
Can you link me to some papers where I can read up on the this. PM will do, that way this thread can stay on topic and not drift off into another direction.

Thanks

 

[Grylls]

Hey guys,

Don't know of this has been asked but these are different from the jags/rpm right?

Does that mean they won't have any neuro issues??

I wouldn't mind owning any snake as long as it didn't do all that crazy neuro stuff. It's hard enough to watch that on YouTube let alone in your own enclosure.

 

[Jeffa]

Nice theories people, but has anyone actually got any results from the law or legislation as opposed to the opinions of hobbists thoughts on the matter? say what you want but the legalaties is what matters the most.

 

[S&M Morelia]

Hey guys.
In relation to the Jag/RPMs they are completely different.
I cannot comment on the neuro issue as my jag isn't showing any sign at all from hatching to now (nearly 2 years old).

Some people think that jags are a mixed up morelia to get their colours and patterns. This is not true. They have a gene that is inheritable that causes the incredible patterning and colours (like a gene that causes albinism except in jags case, being co-dominant instead of recessive).

So hybrids do not get this unless they are paired with a jag.

I could go into more depth about this, but Like i said in an earlier post, this will take the thread into a different direction. If you want more info about it, or want to chat about it, you're more than welcome to PM me.

Cheers.

 

[NickM]

you did say Morelia spilota spilota X Morelia bredli This is wrong. They are both species Morelia spilota. The difference is in the subspecies name for both which is extremely different to a difference in the species.

This statement is absolutely not true. I cant understand why some people still believe that bredli is a subspecies of spilota.

Lets put this to rest: bredli have NEVER been a subspecies of spilota, ever. The species was first named in 1981 by Graham Gow as Morelia bredli.

For some inexplicable reason a few authors published works in which they referred to them as a subspecies of spilota, but this was never justified and no reasons or evidence was ever given for this action. Bredli are Vastly different in almost every charecter of scalation when compared to carpets. They are also completely isolated from all carpet python populations, and have been for a very long time.

The status of Morelia bredli was also definitively demonstrated twice with genetic analysis in (Taylor, 2005) and ( Rawlings et al., 2008)

The later paper also calculated a molecular clock whoch estimated the divergence of the M. bredli lineage from the M. spilota lineage at 10 MYA.

M. bredli is the sister species to the M. spilota complex and though closely related it is not nor has it ever been a subspecies of spilota.


You are correct with regard to imbricata which has been demonstrated to be a full species, equally as divergent from spilota as bredli.

Nick

 

[Jungle_Freak]

just to **** stir but breeding different Carpet python localities is the same as a person from China breeding with a white person from Australia. They are the same species but with different visual characteristics. Are we saying this should not happen??? Im not. Im a lumper and if they can breed and produce offspring that are viable and healthy then go for it.

This is a good point Matt , Polygenic inheritance is responcible for the visual external charactoristics in humans .

Polygenics is also responcible for Carpet pythons wide assortment of colours and patterns in the wild .
Of course the acception are mutations or morphs that can be Co Dom or Recessive etc etc ,,.

Just because a species has a wide variation in appearance does not mean they cannot or should not breed together etc
IE As in humans with the different geographical populations where height ,skin, hair colour and facial appearance vary .

Also IMO that goes for captive breeding of Carpet pythons in the Morelia Spilota Complex .Diamonds Spilota ,McDowelli ,Cheynie ,Variegata, Metcalfei, .
The only restriction with breeding different sub species of Carpet pythons is each states regulations and definitions.

Morelia Bredli is a seperate isolated species and so should Morelia spilota Imbracata be recognised as a isolated seperate species in latest DNA testing .
Roger

Originally Posted by GeckPhotographer
you did say Morelia spilota spilota X Morelia bredli This is wrong. They are both species Morelia spilota. The difference is in the subspecies name for both which is extremely different to a difference in the species.

This statement is absolutely not true. I cant understand why some people still believe that bredli is a subspecies of spilota.

Lets put this to rest: bredli have NEVER been a subspecies of spilota, ever. The species was first named in 1981 by Graham Gow as Morelia bredli.

For some inexplicable reason a few authors published works in which they referred to them as a subspecies of spilota, but this was never justified and no reasons or evidence was ever given for this action. Bredli are Vastly different in almost every charecter of scalation when compared to carpets. They are also completely isolated from all carpet python populations, and have been for a very long time.

The status of Morelia bredli was also definitively demonstrated twice with genetic analysis in (Taylor, 2005) and ( Rawlings et al., 2008)

The later paper also calculated a molecular clock whoch estimated the divergence of the M. bredli lineage from the M. spilota lineage at 10 MYA.

M. bredli is the sister species to the M. spilota complex and though closely related it is not nor has it ever been a subspecies of spilota.


You are correct with regard to imbricata which has been demonstrated to be a full species, equally as divergent from spilota as bredli.

Nick

 

[NickM]

I dont like human racial group comparison because it gets very political and sensitive very quickly. But since it has been brought up here is why it is not a valid comparison:

The divergences between these snakes are old, often measured in millions or tens of millions of years, by contrast the divergences seen in human racial groups are extremely recent, having arisen only in the last 50,000 years or so.

All non African humans are essentially the same genetically, the large differences is appearance are not indicative of any significant genetic changes. Its takes very little time to change pigmentation, hair type etc. So someone of Chinese ancestry and someone from Germany are essentially the same genetically, regardless of their outward appearance. All non Africans are the descendants of a very small group that left Africa, hence the greater genetic diversity in Africa and the lack of diversity seen outside Africa.

The only human population that is different in any significant way are native Africans who's population is the oldest and ancestral to all others, which can be seen reflected in the greater diversity seen in their genome.

So there is not necessarily a correlation between differences in genotype and differences in phenotype.

Nick

 

[Jungle_Freak]

I dont like human racial group comparison because it gets very political and sensitive very quickly. But since it has been brought up here is why it is not a valid comparison:

The divergences between these snakes are old, often measured in millions or tens of millions of years, by contrast the divergences seen in human racial groups are extremely recent, having arisen only in the last 50,000 years or so.

All non African humans are essentially the same genetically, the large differences is appearance are not indicative of any significant genetic changes. Its takes very little time to change pigmentation, hair type etc. So someone of Chinese ancestry and someone from Germany are essentially the same genetically, regardless of their outward appearance. All non Africans are the descendants of a very small group that left Africa, hence the greater genetic diversity in Africa and the lack of diversity seen outside Africa.

The only human population that is different in any significant way are native Africans who's population is the oldest and ancestral to all others, which can be seen reflected in the greater diversity seen in their genome.

So there is not necessarily a correlation between differences in genotype and differences in phenotype.

Nick

Hi Nick ,
My comparison was in relation too polygenic traits only and how with each generation ? polygenic traits are expressed visually ?
The external appearance = polygenic genetics and these are inherited within each new generation.
cheers Roger

Polygenic inheritance, also known as quantitative or multifactorial inheritance refers to inheritance of a phenotypic characteristic (trait) that is attributable to two or more genes, or the interaction with the environment, or both. Unlike monogenic traits, polygenic traits do not follow patterns of Mendelian inheritance (separated traits). Instead, their phenotypes typically vary along a continuous gradient depicted by a bell curve.[1]
An example of a polygenic trait is human skin color. Many genes factor into determining a person's natural skin color, so modifying only one of those genes changes the color only slightly. Many disorders with genetic components are polygenic, including autism, cancer, diabetes and numerous others. Most phenotypic characteristics are the result of the interaction of multiple genes.

 

[EastCoastChondro]

There will always be pure lines in Aus in my opinion there are some hard core purist here and some hard core morph lovers so both will breed what they love which is good. Pure lines are really easy to come by in aus at the moment and i imagine it will stay that way.