Some Morelia's

[Kersten]

Obviously it's not easy but again.. If people are SERIOUS about wanting pure why wouldn't they be prepaired to put in the extra yards to find it?

Hmmmm I don't know how to put this any more coherantly than I already have. It's not about effort. It's not about research and hard yards and serious intent. From what's been said here, the one of the hybrid breeders own arguments in favour of their cause is that if people want pure, they can get pure and all that's required is an honest breeder. And yet....do you have any idea of the number of times people are sold animals which aren't what they are supposed to be? And furthermore, why should people have to fork out extra money to buy a jungle, or a carpet or a whatever they're after because the only way to ensure that they're getting what they've asked for is to buy from someone who is magically able to prove that every single descendant of the animal purchased is what it should be....how can someone even prove that without having videotaped themselves taking the critters from the wild? Are you kidding me? If a person goes and forks out the big bucks and buys a faberge egg, is given a gurantee and the egg is a fake they've a legal recourse available to them to have the matter rectified and they get their money back. Apparently if I ask for a Childreni and it turns out the genetic pool is so polluted it's a mudbath I need to cop it on the chin and kiss my dollars goodbye. Not only that, but if I've not realised my mistake until after I've bred from it and sold offspring as pure then I've contributed to the problem I'm striving to avoid.

Sorry Khagan, I'm not insinuating your the problem here....I just started and couldn't stop lol. Hope I've made my reasoning clearer than it was.

 

[viridis]

The real future of Aussie Reptile Keeping

The direction of the Australian hobby can not be based on APS's measly 2500 members. All we can go off is other countries that are years and years ahead in every aspect of the hobby with opinions based on hundreds of thousands of keepers.

It will be fortunate for many and unfortunate for many more but Hybrid Morphs and Designer pure species animals are the way of the future. This is not a few die hard keepers opinion but the reality of the entire world’s leading reptile breeders.

The typical Aussie's (me included) opinion of a hybrid is a Diamond x Bredli ect. Technically, yes it is a Hybrid. To me it is Mulga food after it has been defrosted from the freezer.

A jag on other hands, well to me that’s an entire different kettle of fish. In actual fact, a Jag (especially the animals available in Australia) is even more of a Hybrid as we have no real idea what is in them. Obviously they have the strong jag gene coming through but what mixed locale yank bred Carpet have they be crossed with prior? Who knows ??? They are so far different to anything ever produced in Australia and they can never be misrepresented for anything else as they are far too spectacular looking.

The majority of people who seem to be up in arms about these ''Hybrids'' are the keepers who have plain, species specific collections made up of wild caught stock with very little or no line breeding in place.

To some keepers making money from reptiles is irrelevant, to some it is the only reason why they got into the hobby as they were all going to make a million dollars from herps, and to others (myself included) they take the good times with the bad. i.e. - aim to produce the best quality animals and in low market times like the current situation, get over the money side of things and either grow the animal up or sell them cheap.

In times of financial hardship like what Australia is experiencing now, only top of the line animals will be quick to sell.

My idea of sales in Australian herps is a follows;

A standard Jungle - Pure Locale or not, will only sell for a very minimal amount $250 - $350 each.

Then you will get genuine, line bred morph animals that still get a top price but will take a while to sell as they appeal to a smaller percentage of the market. $500- $800 each

You will then get an even smaller area of people flogging crap looking snakes as new morphs- ie ''Hypo Striped Jungles'' - $600 each. These are just crap coloured snakes that never colour up and only naive, new buyers purchase these animals.

The final area or Carpet sale in Australia this season are the dastardly Reduced Pattern Jag s and Jag look a likes. .These animals are still fetching up to $2500 each but have a limited sales area. People want Jags but don’t want to get caught with smuggled animals or they want Jag look a likes but are unsure of whether they will take off.

Like it or loath it, the general public have just witnessed the start of the Hybrid Morphs becoming mainstream.

We as private keepers now have one of four main decisions to make;

a) Jump on the band wagon in the race to establish Designer Lines with no species being sacred

b) Keep breeding species pure lines for the future swing back to pure animals (approx 15 years away if it ever happens)

c) Keep an open mind and buy what we like when it become available at a reasonable price

d) Sell most of your collection and only keep your favourite species. You now realise that Hybrids are the way of the future and you personally will never jump on that bandwagon. You then jump ship before you are left producing 250 pure animals a year that will get harder and harder to sell as time goes on and these spectacular looking Hybrids become the norm. (Just wait...that’s me thinking out loud of what I did late last year)

Too all of the people that claimed to have seen a double hypo, super, tri striped tiger jag look alike in the wild then let’s see some pics. Any person in their right mind would photograph any animal that resembled the founder Jag and most would keep it for themselves.

These are some pure Jungles and North westerns that we produced and have since sold due to direct competition from Jags.

Nice looking snakes QLD Morelia’s and I am sure they will out sell many pure species.

Cheers,

Nick Stock

 

[caustichumor]

What bloody planet are you from ?

I may be just a bloody tourist but when I was in Cairns in November I managed to catch 4 snakes (a scrubby, a jungle, a spotted and a brown tree) on a short drive up the Morris Dam rd one evening.

If its Australian and if its wild then its availability will never be an issue; the legality of its availability on the other hand is another story altogether but knowing what I know I don't honestly think that is really an issue for the odd one or two amongst you especially if you are only borrowing them for an evening or two to get jiggy with one of your lady pythons.

Great idea and we can stop all these financial problems in the world by printing more money
You have summed it up perfectly there, Once the captive Morelia stock is obliterated into an obscure singular species, we can just get some more fresh stock:lol: (or infect the native population with some pathagen after utilizing them for breeding) And you can be sure that is what would happen, why would captive animals that have been kept pure go up in value? When such wonderful moraly upstanding people would just help themselves to wild animals (all in the sake of helping the hobby of course)

 

[Khagan]

Hmmmm I don't know how to put this any more coherantly than I already have. It's not about effort. It's not about research and hard yards and serious intent. From what's been said here, the one of the hybrid breeders own arguments in favour of their cause is that if people want pure, they can get pure and all that's required is an honest breeder. And yet....do you have any idea of the number of times people are sold animals which aren't what they are supposed to be? And furthermore, why should people have to fork out extra money to buy a jungle, or a carpet or a whatever they're after because the only way to ensure that they're getting what they've asked for is to buy from someone who is magically able to prove that every single descendant of the animal purchased is what it should be....how can someone even prove that without having videotaped themselves taking the critters from the wild? Are you kidding me? If a person goes and forks out the big bucks and buys a faberge egg, is given a gurantee and the egg is a fake they've a legal recourse available to them to have the matter rectified and they get their money back. Apparently if I ask for a Childreni and it turns out the genetic pool is so polluted it's a mudbath I need to cop it on the chin and kiss my dollars goodbye. Not only that, but if I've not realised my mistake until after I've bred from it and sold offspring as pure then I've contributed to the problem I'm striving to avoid.

Sorry Khagan, I'm not insinuating your the problem here....I just started and couldn't stop lol. Hope I've made my reasoning clearer than it was.

Yeah i get that much, but even without hybrids coming popular the possibility is still there all that's changing is the awareness of what your buying could possibly be a hybrid. I guess what i'm saying is people kick up so much fuss about "keeping it pure" but unless they have wild caught locality specific how can they really be sure their animals are pure? Do they have any proof? Or is EVERYONES animals that aren't wild caught/direct from wild caught just going off of good judgement and nothing more, therefor really making no difference in the end.

 

[Kersten]

Khagan....that's exactly the problem. Mybridising has made figuring out what's what harder than nailing jelly to a wall.

For all those who keep banging on about pics or it didn't happen....how would one then prove that the pic they'd take was of wild animal and not from a collection? I'm betting the minute someone whacks up a wild tri stripe they got shot down on the basis they can't prove it's actually wild.

 

[Kyro]

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-herps/tonights-visitor-101680?highlight=visitor
Perfect example, although not the greatest stripes it is stripey so people immediately presume it's escaped. No offence intended to anyone just pointing out how limited some peoples experiences are with wild pythons, myself included

 

[phatt01]

Most have seen striped coastals in the wild, and most post pics of them, but everyone (as it seems) has seen Tri striped coastals, in the wild but never post pics of them!!!!

 

[phatt01]

Thats right I forgot, if someone posts a pic of a tri striped coastal the will get flamed, on the basis of not being able to prove it is a wild animal, but that would only apply to a Tri stipe of course

 

[Wild~Touch]

Careful guys there's always microchipping and dna sampling to prove "purity"
surely we don't want to go there ????

 

[Snake_Whisperer]

Wow Nick, great post and even nicer snakes! Yep, I'll have to go with the open mind. All the foaming at the mouth and arm waving in the world will not stop individuals from wanting extraordinary and UNIQUE animals.

 

[Wild~Touch]

Careful guys there's always microchipping and dna sampling to prove "purity"
surely we don't want to go there ????

Oh I forgot to add "compulsory" the EPA were considering this years ago

 

[Kersten]

I think you'll find it applies to a lot of things phatt01 The post before with the striped-ish wild carpet proved that the immediate thought (at least for some) is, it can't be wild

 

[Ishah]

It's great to see everyone adopting a live and let live approach on the subject. Or maybe both camps have just given up trying to win people to their way of thinking.
And finally some pictures. I bought this first guy on AHC off a breeder in Qld. I got 3 but the other 2 are nowhere near as good.
The second photo was given to me as a Murry Darling??! So I guess that make's it a Muddymongrelmutt, but it's also pretty hot. I will be breeding her with something next season. Yes, and I will sell the offspring as Muddymongrelmutts if your interested.

Would love to know what the first one (and its siblings) got sold to you as! If the second was sold as a MD!:shock:

(P.S. For those who can't be stuffed looking for the post to see the pics again, or those who missed it... its post #397 http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/1368548-post397 )

That is not the point in the slightest..

What I am worried about is goons that will, yes WILL, not might, label these snakes as pure. They then get sold on some unsuspecting person, who then breeds them with their actually pure animal, then they get sold again and bred, etc etc, and the mess is just going to get deeper and deeper.

Its already been proven that there is no honesty where hybrids are involved, just look over thread again.

Exactly, krefft being sold that snake as an MD is proof its happening and there is no honesty! Krefft also states that he will be breeding it with something, be it a pure snake or a hybrid...hence the "unsuspecting buyer" aka krefft in this case, is going to breed it and the cycle will continue...:? Krefft may be selling them for what they are, but who is to say that the next person will do the same? There are too many dishonest people in this world to ensure it happens...

Hmmmm I don't know how to put this any more coherantly than I already have. It's not about effort. It's not about research and hard yards and serious intent. From what's been said here, the one of the hybrid breeders own arguments in favour of their cause is that if people want pure, they can get pure and all that's required is an honest breeder. And yet....do you have any idea of the number of times people are sold animals which aren't what they are supposed to be? And furthermore, why should people have to fork out extra money to buy a jungle, or a carpet or a whatever they're after because the only way to ensure that they're getting what they've asked for is to buy from someone who is magically able to prove that every single descendant of the animal purchased is what it should be....how can someone even prove that without having videotaped themselves taking the critters from the wild? Are you kidding me? If a person goes and forks out the big bucks and buys a faberge egg, is given a gurantee and the egg is a fake they've a legal recourse available to them to have the matter rectified and they get their money back. Apparently if I ask for a Childreni and it turns out the genetic pool is so polluted it's a mudbath I need to cop it on the chin and kiss my dollars goodbye. Not only that, but if I've not realised my mistake until after I've bred from it and sold offspring as pure then I've contributed to the problem I'm striving to avoid.

Sorry Khagan, I'm not insinuating your the problem here....I just started and couldn't stop lol. Hope I've made my reasoning clearer than it was.

I really don't think I want to know:shock:

Obviously you can't get wild caught for everything and they aren't easy to get, but if your really serious about wanting pure then you would go to every length to ensure it is. The only reason it would make it harder for people to make a name or make people doubt pure morphs is awareness of people being for hybrids. The chance of it being a hybrid would still be the same really, who's to say people haven't already made hybrids and passed them off as just some other variation in the carpets and no one be the wiser purely because it wouldn't be thought of?

Khagan,

As you can see from the above posts...Krefft got sold an obvious hybrid as PURE which is what Vixen and many others are worried about! It is ALREADY happening! And those animals are and do have breeding schedules of sorts... THIS IS WHAT WE ARE WORRIED ABOUT!!!! Amongst many other things of course.... It doesn't just boil down to one reason that we are against it! There are many contributing factors at play here!

And what about all the new people to the hobby/world of reptiles who don't know any better? Who get their snakes off any random breeder just to have a snake or whatever? All the (new) people who don't do their research before buying a reptile and don't know their needs because they just want a snake and want it now! etc etc...? They wont have the slightest clue! Let alone the knowledge about hybrids and pures or any other morph until its too late a few years later...They will have no knowledge of hybrids and the threats they bring and they will most likely go on to breed these hybrids with pures etc etc and the damn cycle continues! Get what I am trying to say? Like Kersten said, I'm positive its happening a LOT and most would be all these unsuspecting new people to the hobby that are the "direct" victims of these idiots that are just in it to make a quick buck and fob off all their "ugly" hybrids (and keep the "good ones" to sell for even MORE) to these new and eager owners (cheaply I'd imagine...depends how money hungry the seller is) who just want a snake no matter what it is...

It seriously is NOT worth it! Why add the cloud of doubt to this hobby as well just for a few "awesome" Hybrid snakes? Seriously....

Yes, I know I'm just banging my head up against a brick wall...:? but maybe all "our purist" opinions and views may shed light for some of those fence-sitters giving them enough to decide? Who knows....

(Probably why this debate and thread has gone on for so long....each side trying to sway the fence-sitters:?....Just thinking out loud, so don't quote me on that:lol

 

[TrueBlue]

Nick,-
no offence, but most of what you said in your post is rubbish. Plain and simple.!! Just an inacurate opinion.
Plus if you havnt seen stripped carpets in the wild, you and alot of other people, definitely need to get out more.

 

[Lewy]

Nick,-
no offence, but most of what you said in your post is rubbish. Plain and simple.!! Just an inacurate opinion.
Plus if you havnt seen stripped carpets in the wild, you and alot of other people, definitely need to get out more.

ROFL well said TB

 

[Jet_1]

I think that eventually there will be a similar recognition for morphs ( or what ever you want to call them) as you have with current line bred animals. I think eventually if the morph comes from a known, quality source/breeder (ie honest and trustworthy, regardless of the heritage of his animals) that produces an exquisite looking line of whatever it is, it will still be desirable by those that like the look of his or her animals. Just like "SXR topaz womas" or "Krauss Black and Gold Jungles" have or do command a higher price than the more typical looking woma or jungle, so to in time will a "XXXX line striped diamond" as opposed to some guy flogging a diamond cross a striped coastal (*again regardless of whether it is a naturally occurring morph or hybrid). The difference to me is that once recognised and accepted the XXXX breeder will be more than happy to put their name to what they breed, many breeders overseas have no problem selling their "less desirable" offspring out of a clutch just because the people buying them know what they are getting and who they are getting it from. My assumption is however that as long as the peers of the people that produce these animals (that they obviously like and are passionate about) are referred to as "goons" that many of the animals that are sold will be sold in the manner similar to the MD specimen that Krefft ended up with, and it will be far easier to offload a known cross as what ever it looks like.......

 

[Retic]

Blimey Nick if you got out anymore you would never be home :lol:

 

[viridis]

Nick,-
no offence, but most of what you said in your post is rubbish. Plain and simple.!! Just an inacurate opinion.
Plus if you havnt seen stripped carpets in the wild, you and alot of other people, definitely need to get out more.

Your right Robyn,

I have never encounted a stripped Carpet in the wild. In fact I dont think I have ever seen any stripped snake in the wild? Could you please enlighten us with some pics of stripped Carpets?

Nick

 

[Retic]

Naked snakes.....this is a family site

 

[QldMorelias]

In response to the talk regarding Kreft being sold a misrepresented carpet,

Yes, the breeding of designer snakes has the potential to cause this to re-occur, however what most if not nearly all keepers dont realise is that it is already happening and has been happening for years. The only difference is in most instances when a designer snake is involved, you can more often than not tell by the unusual pattern or colouration (this should be considered a positive). When it involves offspring from the same species but from different locales eg Brisbane and Townsville Carpets, more often than not, you probably wont be able to tell.

Designer snakes are not the beginning of misrepresented animals. Its been going on for years, due to dishonest breeders.